6 ms·

But in fact the financial district is not all of NYC. And there are plenty of places in SF that have higher than its overall average of 7,100/km^2. The point

But in fact the financial district is not all of NYC. And there are plenty of places in SF that have higher than its overall average of 7,100/km^2. The point is, the meme in HN is that San Francisco is some weird spread out suburb like, I don't know, Houston (1,414 people/km^2). It's not. It's already quite dense. Could it be denser? Obviously yes. Could it QUICKLY become SO MUCH denser that it radically changes the affordability of the city? Only in the fairy land where you ignore every part of reality that's inconvenient.

stale2002 10y ago
Cities in general could be much denser. Those 7k people/km could be 27k people. We know this because there are currently places that are 27k. Those place in NYC that are 10k could ALSO be much more dense if the NIMBY didn't stop them from being so. And yes, it could be done quickly. Just stop preventing developers from development. The market would LOVE to make tons of money by massively expanding.
umanwizard 10y ago
Regardless of what the density numbers show (which I suspect depends much more on what we choose to define as "the city" than on any reality), anecdotally it's impossible to get around comfortably in SF without a car. Being able to live without a car is the defining characteristic of a real city as opposed to a sprawled-out suburb, in my mind.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I do know people who live in SF without owning a car but they use a lot of Uber/Zipcar/other rentals/car sharing etc. (as well as cycling and using delivery services). Personally, in their position, I'd probably own a car. That said, there are very few US cities where you could live without a car without it being a hassle, especially if you want to leave your core urban area on a regular basis.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    New York. Maybe New York is the only real world-class city in the US. It's not a hard argument to support...
    - ghaff 10y ago
      I'm less convinced that world class city inherently means "not owning a car is the norm and isn't really a compromise." That seems to give a lot of weight to what's ultimately your personal preference. But, yes, if that's the definition, only New York (Manhattan in particular) really qualifies in the US. You can get away with it in other US cities but it tends to depend on stage in life, income, specific situation with respect to job etc., recreational activities, and how much hassle you're willing to put up with. That said, living in Manhattan is a very specific lifestyle choice that isn't for everyone. I like visiting it now and then but the summer I worked there was enough.
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        Can you name many other world-class cities where one needs a car to comfortably survive? I've been to many such as Hong Kong, Tokyo, Paris, and London, and most people don't own cars in any of those.
        aetherson 10y ago
        "There are 2.6m cars registered in London. 54 per cent of London households have at least one car." -- http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-are-there-in-london.pdf http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-ar... "Tokyo has the lowest number in the nation–0.46 cars per household" -- http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2014/08/18/number-of-cars-per-household-stagnates-in-japan/ http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2014/08/18/number-of-cars... I can't find cars per household for Paris, but cars per adult appears to be around 0.5, (https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01069997/document https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01069997/document), so cars per household can't be lower than that. Hong Kong appears to be truly virtually carless.

stale2002 10y ago

Cities in general could be much denser. Those 7k people/km could be 27k people. We know this because there are currently places that are 27k. Those place in NYC that are 10k could ALSO be much more dense if the NIMBY didn't stop them from being so. And yes, it could be done quickly. Just stop preventing developers from development. The market would LOVE to make tons of money by massively expanding.

umanwizard 10y ago

Regardless of what the density numbers show (which I suspect depends much more on what we choose to define as "the city" than on any reality), anecdotally it's impossible to get around comfortably in SF without a car. Being able to live without a car is the defining characteristic of a real city as opposed to a sprawled-out suburb, in my mind.

ghaff 10y ago
I do know people who live in SF without owning a car but they use a lot of Uber/Zipcar/other rentals/car sharing etc. (as well as cycling and using delivery services). Personally, in their position, I'd probably own a car. That said, there are very few US cities where you could live without a car without it being a hassle, especially if you want to leave your core urban area on a regular basis.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  New York. Maybe New York is the only real world-class city in the US. It's not a hard argument to support...
  - ghaff 10y ago
    I'm less convinced that world class city inherently means "not owning a car is the norm and isn't really a compromise." That seems to give a lot of weight to what's ultimately your personal preference. But, yes, if that's the definition, only New York (Manhattan in particular) really qualifies in the US. You can get away with it in other US cities but it tends to depend on stage in life, income, specific situation with respect to job etc., recreational activities, and how much hassle you're willing to put up with. That said, living in Manhattan is a very specific lifestyle choice that isn't for everyone. I like visiting it now and then but the summer I worked there was enough.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Can you name many other world-class cities where one needs a car to comfortably survive? I've been to many such as Hong Kong, Tokyo, Paris, and London, and most people don't own cars in any of those.
      - aetherson 10y ago
        "There are 2.6m cars registered in London. 54 per cent of London households have at least one car." -- http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-are-there-in-london.pdf http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-ar... "Tokyo has the lowest number in the nation–0.46 cars per household" -- http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2014/08/18/number-of-cars-per-household-stagnates-in-japan/ http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2014/08/18/number-of-cars... I can't find cars per household for Paris, but cars per adult appears to be around 0.5, (https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01069997/document https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01069997/document), so cars per household can't be lower than that. Hong Kong appears to be truly virtually carless.