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I feel like the "infinite jobs" idea is too foundational to American culture to be completely removed. The very definition of "prosperity" includes having a job

I feel like the "infinite jobs" idea is too foundational to American culture to be completely removed. The very definition of "prosperity" includes having a job. The definition of "success" includes having a job.

bbctol 10y ago
Cultures change. It can be painful, but eventually, it will become inevitable.
fucking_tragedy 10y ago
For the "The End of History" hypothesis to work, the basis for capitalism supposes infinite growth to provide opportunity and prosperity for people. But capital has decided growth is too risky in many markets. It's a shame we've structured our society and economy to be dependent on the whims of capital.
WorldMaker 10y ago
I've described it before about how deeply American culture has a "work problem" and that it is as much a religion as anything. We don't call it a "Protestant Work Ethic" without reason, and lot of what you hear people say about jobs and work these days wouldn't sound much different from what the Puritans (who get credit as some of the earliest American colonists) preached as core to their way of life. To some extent as the culture has gotten less dogmatic in some areas, the dogma of work has only entrenched further. (To many people the big corporate passive aggressive notes from belly of HR about the "good of the company" are the closest to people's weekly and/or daily sermons that they'll see.) There are a lot of people, pundits especially, that see work as a moral obligation and the lack of work as a sin. I think it will take as much as anything else a new wave of religious thinking to move American culture past some hangups into a future with fewer "jobs" available. Or a redefinition of a lot more hobbies and crafts as "jobs" and "work". (I'm not sure which would be easier. There are stigmas in both directions.)
- keyboardhitter 10y ago
  > To many people the big corporate passive aggressive notes from belly of HR about the "good of the company" are the closest to people's weekly and/or daily sermons that they'll see. Oh wow. I've not thought about that culture in such a light. Perhaps that's why I have always found those "sermons" a bit creepy? I think you have a great point here. > Or a redefinition of a lot more hobbies and crafts as "jobs" and "work". (I'm not sure which would be easier. There are stigmas in both directions.) 100% agreed. I know quite a few artists who are branching off into freelance, using the internet to their disposal (patreon, gofundme, etsy, etc.) who have been chided for not "having a real job" or looked down upon for choosing to have a part time "real job" to make time for their craft / art. Yet, they make respectable income. This phenomenon for artists in general may not be new, of course. I just like to imagine how the internet may help change or eradicate the stigma of it not being "good enough". When my own brother decided to go down this path, I was a bit concerned, and the truth is most of my positions as a sysadmin until recently were very corporate. I was appalled at myself for even thinking things like, "But this isn't going to build a career for him. Why is he even taking this chance? This seems stupid of him." I'm now wondering if my exposure to this 'corporate dogma' may be related.
zghst 10y ago
Prosperity isn't only a job. A good, well paying job.

bbctol 10y ago

Cultures change. It can be painful, but eventually, it will become inevitable.

fucking_tragedy 10y ago

For the "The End of History" hypothesis to work, the basis for capitalism supposes infinite growth to provide opportunity and prosperity for people. But capital has decided growth is too risky in many markets. It's a shame we've structured our society and economy to be dependent on the whims of capital.

WorldMaker 10y ago

I've described it before about how deeply American culture has a "work problem" and that it is as much a religion as anything. We don't call it a "Protestant Work Ethic" without reason, and lot of what you hear people say about jobs and work these days wouldn't sound much different from what the Puritans (who get credit as some of the earliest American colonists) preached as core to their way of life. To some extent as the culture has gotten less dogmatic in some areas, the dogma of work has only entrenched further. (To many people the big corporate passive aggressive notes from belly of HR about the "good of the company" are the closest to people's weekly and/or daily sermons that they'll see.) There are a lot of people, pundits especially, that see work as a moral obligation and the lack of work as a sin. I think it will take as much as anything else a new wave of religious thinking to move American culture past some hangups into a future with fewer "jobs" available. Or a redefinition of a lot more hobbies and crafts as "jobs" and "work". (I'm not sure which would be easier. There are stigmas in both directions.)

keyboardhitter 10y ago
> To many people the big corporate passive aggressive notes from belly of HR about the "good of the company" are the closest to people's weekly and/or daily sermons that they'll see. Oh wow. I've not thought about that culture in such a light. Perhaps that's why I have always found those "sermons" a bit creepy? I think you have a great point here. > Or a redefinition of a lot more hobbies and crafts as "jobs" and "work". (I'm not sure which would be easier. There are stigmas in both directions.) 100% agreed. I know quite a few artists who are branching off into freelance, using the internet to their disposal (patreon, gofundme, etsy, etc.) who have been chided for not "having a real job" or looked down upon for choosing to have a part time "real job" to make time for their craft / art. Yet, they make respectable income. This phenomenon for artists in general may not be new, of course. I just like to imagine how the internet may help change or eradicate the stigma of it not being "good enough". When my own brother decided to go down this path, I was a bit concerned, and the truth is most of my positions as a sysadmin until recently were very corporate. I was appalled at myself for even thinking things like, "But this isn't going to build a career for him. Why is he even taking this chance? This seems stupid of him." I'm now wondering if my exposure to this 'corporate dogma' may be related.

zghst 10y ago

Prosperity isn't only a job. A good, well paying job.