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While I don't agree with everything Thiel believes, it's really, really refreshing to get a different take from the upper echelons of the tech industry. If you

While I don't agree with everything Thiel believes, it's really, really refreshing to get a different take from the upper echelons of the tech industry. If you follow a lot of VCs and CEOs on Twitter you'll find that they have a nearly homogenous political groupthink. This industry needs more diversity of thought and Thiel stands alone in his strength to go against the grain and stand by his philosophy. Love his ideas or hate them, that's an admirable trait.

gallonofmilk 10y ago
I would have to agree with this.
maxxxxx 10y ago
I don't understand how somebody who claims to be fact-driven and rational like Thiel can end up supporting Trump. If anything, he should be disgusted with the whole system and try to change it.
- refurb 10y ago
  This is only my opinion, and could very well be off-base, but politics is all about compromise. You'll never find the perfect candidate to represent your beliefs. I'm guessing Thiel is thinking Trump is the best candidate to support the kind of changes he's looking for. Of course, you're free to disagree with that sentiment.
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    I think Thiel is fine with crony capitalism under the guise of libertarianism. That's where things will probably go with Trump. There is a lot of money to be made.
  - colmvp 10y ago
    Exactly. As a counterpoint, I know many people who are against Hillary's voting records, flip-floppy history, and aggressive foreign policy doctrine, yet are going to vote for her because well... they'd rather have her than Trump.
- 010a 10y ago
  Isn't that... the entirety of Trump's platform?
- toss1941 10y ago
  What positions has Trump taken that you feel are against facts and adequate rational?
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    He makes up a lot of facts on the fly and then claims that he has been misinterpreted. The whole wall to Mexico thing and have Mexico pay for it is ridiculous. Now he questions the NATO treaties. I haven't heard anything from him that indicates deep thinking about an issue.
    - goodcitizen147 10y ago
      Why is building a wall ridiculous? Humans have been buildings walls for thousands of years. Yes, NATO countries should be fulfilling their obligations under the NATO treaty. Seems reasonable to question that. > I haven't heard anything from him that indicates deep thinking about an issue. You haven't heard anything as filtered through CNN, NY Times, Huffington Post, Vox, or whatever other rag you read. Just watch the man's speeches about foreign policy or the aftermath of the Orlando shooting.
    - toss1941 10y ago
      I'll be honest I haven't been following a lot of his positions on things other than what spills over into the tech/security folks I follow on twitter and various other sites. I didn't know about the NATO comments but here's what I learned about him just today [0]: (edit: talking about whether Trump would defend Turkey if Russia invaded unprovoked): Trump said he would have to think about whether those countries “have fulfilled their obligations to us.” Trump clarified, “If they fulfill their obligations to us, the answer is yes.” It seems pretty rational to me; he's saying that if a country like Turkey wants to acquire the benefits of a military alliance they need to pay their fair share. On the surface that seems reasonable to me and honestly, from reading here if Erdrogan got attacked by Russia I doubt most of Trump's enemies would shed any tears about his stance on NATO anyway. [0] http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/trump-doesnt-care-about-erdogans-purges-says-he-may-not-honor-nato-treaty/#ixzz4F3u0HUDx http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/trump-doesnt-care-about-er...
- exstudent2 10y ago
  > Thiel can end up supporting Trump I can't speak for him, but a lot of people see the break up of a homogenous status quo as a goal in and of itself. I don't support Trump because I don't like his policies but that's a hard position for me to take because I _do_ appreciate the utter slap in the face he's giving to traditional politicians who I view as perpetuating an extremely corrupt and damaging system.
  - pm90 10y ago
    If you think the US is extremely corrupt.... you should really take a look at India, Russia etc. Corruption is never elliminated by revolutions btw. It takes time and patience to reform the current system. It is not an overnight fix and thinking that Trump can have an overall positive influence on the US system is a huge error.
- davidivadavid 10y ago
  I can't see what those things have to do with one another. Thiel can take perfectly rational, fact-driven decisions based on Trump's behavior, regardless of what it is. Indeed, it's completely possible that to achieve his goals, he must leverage Trump's misuse of "facts" and, erm, "creativity" with respect to truth.
- DefaultUserHN 10y ago
  Can you clarify on what system you're talking about? And what are the problems with that system? And what should Thiel do to change it? And important, what does Thiel wants? And how does changing the system align with what he wants? You have to remember that Theil doesn't want the same thing you want. Just because you want something doesn't mean Theil want the same thing, or has the same goal. Theil knows exactly what he wants, that is why he supports Trump. It seems to be you who does not understand what Theil wants. Because if he wants the same thing you wants, he would have supported what you supported.
smt88 10y ago
> This industry needs more diversity of thought Sure, I agree. But there are some kinds of diversity that no industry needs. You wouldn't, for example, ever say, "Hey, Silicon Valley is full of non-racists. Let's get some more racists in here!" You'd instead be glad that Silicon Valley had a non-racist groupthink. The same is true of things like climate change, where "diversity" just means someone is dangerously wrong and living in the past. I don't intimately know Thiel's political views (above were just examples), but it seems that many people are worried that Thiel falls into that category of "diversity we don't need".
- exstudent2 10y ago
  I think it's more subtle than that. The racist thing is a perfect example. I absolutely 100% think that Trump's opinions are racist. _However_ I also find the "progressives" who attack whites and objectify every other race to be equally racist. But because the latter controls the narrative in our industry and the framing of the message, many can't see the racism there or won't even acknowledge that it may exist.
kenko 10y ago
There's nothing admirable about "going against the grain" in itself. Probably most people in the upper echelons of tech wealth don't think it's a great idea to deport Muslims, and don't support Trump. I see no reason to admire someone for having a different opinion on that matter just because it's different. There are lots of ways to "go against the grain" in the way you point out. You could be an unthinking dogmatist. Nothing would change the way you feel, not even the censure of your peers. (Is Thiel being censured? Sure, by Pinboard on twitter. By his peers? Not that I can see. His richy-rich pals all still love him, AFAICT.) Is there something admirable about having your head in the ground? Not really---and I don't think that, on the broader social level, we tend to applaud people who still think gay sex is shameful and should be illegal, even though, you know, they really go against the grain. You could be, say, a modern Cato. But Cato is admirable not just because he fell on his sword but because he fell on his sword out of devotion to an admirable ideal. I see no reason, incidentally, to believe your claim that "Thiel stands alone in his strength to go against the grain". If other people aren't going against the grain, it might be that they think the grain is largely going in the right direction already, and not that they lack the strength to go against it. And, on the other hand, you have to pay a little attention to threads about diversity of race or gender to find a lot of people with the strength to go against the grain. Guess what: the grain they go against, Thiel goes with.
- kenko 10y ago
  incidentally this is a good paper: https://www.princeton.edu/~tkelly/ftawil.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~tkelly/ftawil.pdf
- goodcitizen147 10y ago
  You think doing an "as-a-minority" blog post or talk in SV takes strength? Why? The most echoed responses are all praise, especially praises for 'bravery'. Really man, do some higher order thinking here.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  > There's nothing admirable about "going against the grain" in itself. There is if you think the grain is a corrupt and unfair system that needs dismantling. The enemy of my enemy is my friend thing. I would consider myself to have overlapping social thoughts with most liberals but it's really terrifying to me to have an absolute aggregation of media and executive power (in our industry) along one line of thinking (even if I agree with most of it!). Power needs to be distributed, not consolidated.
Vaskivo 10y ago
I agree. Quoting Christopher Hitchens (who is quoting John Stuart Mill): > "Indeed as John Stuart Mill said, if all in society were agreed on the truth and beauty and value of one proposition, all except one person, it would be most important–in fact, it would become even more important–that that one heretic be heard, because we would still benefit from his perhaps outrageous or appalling view" @maxxxxx I'm not an american, and don't follow closely american politics, but isn't supporting Trump "going against the system"?
davesque 10y ago
I don't understand how, in the case of tech CEOs, this so called "groupthink" is such a problem. The fact is, as you rely more and more on a system of reason and evidence to make your decisions, your opinions will tend to seem more and more consistent with other people who subscribe to that system. This consistency is just a side-effect of having a good system.
- goodcitizen147 10y ago
  Yup that's why everyone was buying CDOs from Fannie Mae and flipping houses in 2007. That's why everyone in 1940s Germany thought it was a good idea to eliminate the Jews. Groupthink ftw!
dirtyaura 10y ago
Are they really that homogenous? I'm not from the USA, but it seems that there are both republicans (Andreessen and Horowitz, for example) and democrats (Eric Schmidt and Jack Dorsey, for example) among VCs and CEOs. Younger generation might have Sanders-style social democrat tendencies, but there are a lot of libertarians like Thiel in startup circles, though most of them don't mix conservative religious stances like Thiel does.

gallonofmilk 10y ago

I would have to agree with this.

maxxxxx 10y ago

I don't understand how somebody who claims to be fact-driven and rational like Thiel can end up supporting Trump. If anything, he should be disgusted with the whole system and try to change it.

refurb 10y ago
This is only my opinion, and could very well be off-base, but politics is all about compromise. You'll never find the perfect candidate to represent your beliefs. I'm guessing Thiel is thinking Trump is the best candidate to support the kind of changes he's looking for. Of course, you're free to disagree with that sentiment.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  I think Thiel is fine with crony capitalism under the guise of libertarianism. That's where things will probably go with Trump. There is a lot of money to be made.
- colmvp 10y ago
  Exactly. As a counterpoint, I know many people who are against Hillary's voting records, flip-floppy history, and aggressive foreign policy doctrine, yet are going to vote for her because well... they'd rather have her than Trump.
010a 10y ago
Isn't that... the entirety of Trump's platform?
toss1941 10y ago
What positions has Trump taken that you feel are against facts and adequate rational?
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  He makes up a lot of facts on the fly and then claims that he has been misinterpreted. The whole wall to Mexico thing and have Mexico pay for it is ridiculous. Now he questions the NATO treaties. I haven't heard anything from him that indicates deep thinking about an issue.
  - goodcitizen147 10y ago
    Why is building a wall ridiculous? Humans have been buildings walls for thousands of years. Yes, NATO countries should be fulfilling their obligations under the NATO treaty. Seems reasonable to question that. > I haven't heard anything from him that indicates deep thinking about an issue. You haven't heard anything as filtered through CNN, NY Times, Huffington Post, Vox, or whatever other rag you read. Just watch the man's speeches about foreign policy or the aftermath of the Orlando shooting.
  - toss1941 10y ago
    I'll be honest I haven't been following a lot of his positions on things other than what spills over into the tech/security folks I follow on twitter and various other sites. I didn't know about the NATO comments but here's what I learned about him just today [0]: (edit: talking about whether Trump would defend Turkey if Russia invaded unprovoked): Trump said he would have to think about whether those countries “have fulfilled their obligations to us.” Trump clarified, “If they fulfill their obligations to us, the answer is yes.” It seems pretty rational to me; he's saying that if a country like Turkey wants to acquire the benefits of a military alliance they need to pay their fair share. On the surface that seems reasonable to me and honestly, from reading here if Erdrogan got attacked by Russia I doubt most of Trump's enemies would shed any tears about his stance on NATO anyway. [0] http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/trump-doesnt-care-about-erdogans-purges-says-he-may-not-honor-nato-treaty/#ixzz4F3u0HUDx http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/trump-doesnt-care-about-er...
exstudent2 10y ago
> Thiel can end up supporting Trump I can't speak for him, but a lot of people see the break up of a homogenous status quo as a goal in and of itself. I don't support Trump because I don't like his policies but that's a hard position for me to take because I _do_ appreciate the utter slap in the face he's giving to traditional politicians who I view as perpetuating an extremely corrupt and damaging system.
- pm90 10y ago
  If you think the US is extremely corrupt.... you should really take a look at India, Russia etc. Corruption is never elliminated by revolutions btw. It takes time and patience to reform the current system. It is not an overnight fix and thinking that Trump can have an overall positive influence on the US system is a huge error.
davidivadavid 10y ago
I can't see what those things have to do with one another. Thiel can take perfectly rational, fact-driven decisions based on Trump's behavior, regardless of what it is. Indeed, it's completely possible that to achieve his goals, he must leverage Trump's misuse of "facts" and, erm, "creativity" with respect to truth.
DefaultUserHN 10y ago
Can you clarify on what system you're talking about? And what are the problems with that system? And what should Thiel do to change it? And important, what does Thiel wants? And how does changing the system align with what he wants? You have to remember that Theil doesn't want the same thing you want. Just because you want something doesn't mean Theil want the same thing, or has the same goal. Theil knows exactly what he wants, that is why he supports Trump. It seems to be you who does not understand what Theil wants. Because if he wants the same thing you wants, he would have supported what you supported.

smt88 10y ago

> This industry needs more diversity of thought Sure, I agree. But there are some kinds of diversity that no industry needs. You wouldn't, for example, ever say, "Hey, Silicon Valley is full of non-racists. Let's get some more racists in here!" You'd instead be glad that Silicon Valley had a non-racist groupthink. The same is true of things like climate change, where "diversity" just means someone is dangerously wrong and living in the past. I don't intimately know Thiel's political views (above were just examples), but it seems that many people are worried that Thiel falls into that category of "diversity we don't need".

exstudent2 10y ago
I think it's more subtle than that. The racist thing is a perfect example. I absolutely 100% think that Trump's opinions are racist. _However_ I also find the "progressives" who attack whites and objectify every other race to be equally racist. But because the latter controls the narrative in our industry and the framing of the message, many can't see the racism there or won't even acknowledge that it may exist.

kenko 10y ago

There's nothing admirable about "going against the grain" in itself. Probably most people in the upper echelons of tech wealth don't think it's a great idea to deport Muslims, and don't support Trump. I see no reason to admire someone for having a different opinion on that matter just because it's different. There are lots of ways to "go against the grain" in the way you point out. You could be an unthinking dogmatist. Nothing would change the way you feel, not even the censure of your peers. (Is Thiel being censured? Sure, by Pinboard on twitter. By his peers? Not that I can see. His richy-rich pals all still love him, AFAICT.) Is there something admirable about having your head in the ground? Not really---and I don't think that, on the broader social level, we tend to applaud people who still think gay sex is shameful and should be illegal, even though, you know, they really go against the grain. You could be, say, a modern Cato. But Cato is admirable not just because he fell on his sword but because he fell on his sword out of devotion to an admirable ideal. I see no reason, incidentally, to believe your claim that "Thiel stands alone in his strength to go against the grain". If other people aren't going against the grain, it might be that they think the grain is largely going in the right direction already, and not that they lack the strength to go against it. And, on the other hand, you have to pay a little attention to threads about diversity of race or gender to find a lot of people with the strength to go against the grain. Guess what: the grain they go against, Thiel goes with.

kenko 10y ago
incidentally this is a good paper: https://www.princeton.edu/~tkelly/ftawil.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~tkelly/ftawil.pdf
goodcitizen147 10y ago
You think doing an "as-a-minority" blog post or talk in SV takes strength? Why? The most echoed responses are all praise, especially praises for 'bravery'. Really man, do some higher order thinking here.
exstudent2 10y ago
> There's nothing admirable about "going against the grain" in itself. There is if you think the grain is a corrupt and unfair system that needs dismantling. The enemy of my enemy is my friend thing. I would consider myself to have overlapping social thoughts with most liberals but it's really terrifying to me to have an absolute aggregation of media and executive power (in our industry) along one line of thinking (even if I agree with most of it!). Power needs to be distributed, not consolidated.

Vaskivo 10y ago

I agree. Quoting Christopher Hitchens (who is quoting John Stuart Mill): > "Indeed as John Stuart Mill said, if all in society were agreed on the truth and beauty and value of one proposition, all except one person, it would be most important–in fact, it would become even more important–that that one heretic be heard, because we would still benefit from his perhaps outrageous or appalling view" @maxxxxx I'm not an american, and don't follow closely american politics, but isn't supporting Trump "going against the system"?

davesque 10y ago

I don't understand how, in the case of tech CEOs, this so called "groupthink" is such a problem. The fact is, as you rely more and more on a system of reason and evidence to make your decisions, your opinions will tend to seem more and more consistent with other people who subscribe to that system. This consistency is just a side-effect of having a good system.

goodcitizen147 10y ago
Yup that's why everyone was buying CDOs from Fannie Mae and flipping houses in 2007. That's why everyone in 1940s Germany thought it was a good idea to eliminate the Jews. Groupthink ftw!

dirtyaura 10y ago

Are they really that homogenous? I'm not from the USA, but it seems that there are both republicans (Andreessen and Horowitz, for example) and democrats (Eric Schmidt and Jack Dorsey, for example) among VCs and CEOs. Younger generation might have Sanders-style social democrat tendencies, but there are a lot of libertarians like Thiel in startup circles, though most of them don't mix conservative religious stances like Thiel does.