4 ms·

Excuse me? I grew up in Detroit and Flint, and come from a broken family. I earned my way up and out of those particular hell-holes, making my way to the East

by lwhalen 10y ago

Excuse me? I grew up in Detroit and Flint, and come from a broken family. I earned my way up and out of those particular hell-holes, making my way to the East Coast and lately the West. Please, do tell me more about how I haven't investigated the issues of Black families and communities being targeted for acquisition, etc.

Kinnard 10y ago
Have you familiarized yourself with the psychology of trauma and the praxis of healing? Are you a descendant of Black slaves? Blacks who fled the South forming enclaves in the Cities of America were refugees. But unlike other refugees they never received the post-trauma treatment we give other survivors. They also encountered crushing discrimination wherever they went. They were shut-out of opportunities to improve their lives and the lives of their families, the effects of enslavement, slavery, terrorism, segregation, and discrimination do not disappear because a new law is passed making those things illegal. They reverberate across generations.
- lwhalen 10y ago
  No, and yes. If I leave a location, I am so incredibly not-responsible for what happens to it after I'm gone. If you think otherwise, I suspect you have some cause-and-effect bits in your brain that are irreparably damaged.
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding. No one is saying that "you are responsible for what has happened in Flint and Detroit." We are saying that racism is one of the driving engines—if not THE driving engine—of these processes. EDIT: And being blind to that perpetuates the problems!
    - lwhalen 10y ago
      G-G-GP said "When people complain about shitty urban areas ... they're basically complaining about the state of the urban center which white people created when they moved out decades ago." I said, "Tell me how a person's absence means they're at fault for what happens to a place after they're gone". I've achieved some level of economic success since I moved myself out of 'the hood'. The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case.
      - peterwwillis 10y ago
        > The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case. IMO comes down to the economics of how a city operates. The city needs money to provide services. The people need money to afford to patronize businesses, keep up their properties, and keep their city government afloat. Businesses need paying customers, and employees. If you don't stick around, you can't contribute to any of that, other than if you were perhaps a business owner. But then if the people working there aren't from there, or if the owner moves the money out of the city, it can still provide no net benefit. Try not to take it personally, but yes, moving away does not help and may even do the opposite of helping. But maybe if you stayed you would have ended up worse off and dragged the whole thing down? Can't say for sure, but it is obvious, and widely accepted by academics, that in the general case, white people leaving hurt black communities more than it helped. There's also the social aspect of which people that make up the community to consider. The less homogeneous the community, the more difficult it is for people to empathize with and help people different than them, which perpetuates systemic racism and inequality, etc.
        lwhalen 10y ago
        So by that logic, my choice of not-moving to Atlanta, Gary, or any other economically-disadvantaged area contributes to those places' continued slide into a lawless hellhole too, right?

by lwhalen 10y ago

Kinnard 10y ago

Have you familiarized yourself with the psychology of trauma and the praxis of healing? Are you a descendant of Black slaves? Blacks who fled the South forming enclaves in the Cities of America were refugees. But unlike other refugees they never received the post-trauma treatment we give other survivors. They also encountered crushing discrimination wherever they went. They were shut-out of opportunities to improve their lives and the lives of their families, the effects of enslavement, slavery, terrorism, segregation, and discrimination do not disappear because a new law is passed making those things illegal. They reverberate across generations.

lwhalen 10y ago
No, and yes. If I leave a location, I am so incredibly not-responsible for what happens to it after I'm gone. If you think otherwise, I suspect you have some cause-and-effect bits in your brain that are irreparably damaged.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding. No one is saying that "you are responsible for what has happened in Flint and Detroit." We are saying that racism is one of the driving engines—if not THE driving engine—of these processes. EDIT: And being blind to that perpetuates the problems!
  - lwhalen 10y ago
    G-G-GP said "When people complain about shitty urban areas ... they're basically complaining about the state of the urban center which white people created when they moved out decades ago." I said, "Tell me how a person's absence means they're at fault for what happens to a place after they're gone". I've achieved some level of economic success since I moved myself out of 'the hood'. The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case.
    - peterwwillis 10y ago
      > The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case. IMO comes down to the economics of how a city operates. The city needs money to provide services. The people need money to afford to patronize businesses, keep up their properties, and keep their city government afloat. Businesses need paying customers, and employees. If you don't stick around, you can't contribute to any of that, other than if you were perhaps a business owner. But then if the people working there aren't from there, or if the owner moves the money out of the city, it can still provide no net benefit. Try not to take it personally, but yes, moving away does not help and may even do the opposite of helping. But maybe if you stayed you would have ended up worse off and dragged the whole thing down? Can't say for sure, but it is obvious, and widely accepted by academics, that in the general case, white people leaving hurt black communities more than it helped. There's also the social aspect of which people that make up the community to consider. The less homogeneous the community, the more difficult it is for people to empathize with and help people different than them, which perpetuates systemic racism and inequality, etc.
      - lwhalen 10y ago
        So by that logic, my choice of not-moving to Atlanta, Gary, or any other economically-disadvantaged area contributes to those places' continued slide into a lawless hellhole too, right?