3 ms·

Wait, explain to me slowly how it's white-people's fault that an area deteriorates after they move out. Generally the absence of a person means they relinquish

by lwhalen 10y ago

Wait, explain to me slowly how it's white-people's fault that an area deteriorates after they move out. Generally the absence of a person means they relinquish responsibility for what goes on in a place that they aren't occupying, at least in my fragile, tiny mind.

Kinnard 10y ago
There's a lot more going on than that. If that's not obvious then I'd expect its because you haven't investigated the issues. Black communities and neighborhoods are specifically targeted for destruction and/or acquisition. Black families and communities have born the brunt of the War on Drugs. A community is not going to do well when a large swath of its fathers are rounded up, caged, and permanently barred from living a life of dignity.
- lwhalen 10y ago
  Excuse me? I grew up in Detroit and Flint, and come from a broken family. I earned my way up and out of those particular hell-holes, making my way to the East Coast and lately the West. Please, do tell me more about how I haven't investigated the issues of Black families and communities being targeted for acquisition, etc.
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    Have you familiarized yourself with the psychology of trauma and the praxis of healing? Are you a descendant of Black slaves? Blacks who fled the South forming enclaves in the Cities of America were refugees. But unlike other refugees they never received the post-trauma treatment we give other survivors. They also encountered crushing discrimination wherever they went. They were shut-out of opportunities to improve their lives and the lives of their families, the effects of enslavement, slavery, terrorism, segregation, and discrimination do not disappear because a new law is passed making those things illegal. They reverberate across generations.
    - lwhalen 10y ago
      No, and yes. If I leave a location, I am so incredibly not-responsible for what happens to it after I'm gone. If you think otherwise, I suspect you have some cause-and-effect bits in your brain that are irreparably damaged.
      - Kinnard 10y ago
        I think you're misunderstanding. No one is saying that "you are responsible for what has happened in Flint and Detroit." We are saying that racism is one of the driving engines—if not THE driving engine—of these processes. EDIT: And being blind to that perpetuates the problems!
        lwhalen 10y ago
        G-G-GP said "When people complain about shitty urban areas ... they're basically complaining about the state of the urban center which white people created when they moved out decades ago." I said, "Tell me how a person's absence means they're at fault for what happens to a place after they're gone". I've achieved some level of economic success since I moved myself out of 'the hood'. The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case.
        peterwwillis 10y ago
        > The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case. IMO comes down to the economics of how a city operates. The city needs money to provide services. The people need money to afford to patronize businesses, keep up their properties, and keep their city government afloat. Businesses need paying customers, and employees. If you don't stick around, you can't contribute to any of that, other than if you were perhaps a business owner. But then if the people working there aren't from there, or if the owner moves the money out of the city, it can still provide no net benefit. Try not to take it personally, but yes, moving away does not help and may even do the opposite of helping. But maybe if you stayed you would have ended up worse off and dragged the whole thing down? Can't say for sure, but it is obvious, and widely accepted by academics, that in the general case, white people leaving hurt black communities more than it helped. There's also the social aspect of which people that make up the community to consider. The less homogeneous the community, the more difficult it is for people to empathize with and help people different than them, which perpetuates systemic racism and inequality, etc.
- awt 10y ago
  Would you allow black people at least some moral agency? Certainly you'd say that blacks who avoid crime and instead thrive in the legit economy are responsible to at least some degree for their own success? Why would you not then hold those who become criminals equally responsible for their failure?
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    The issue isn't moral agency. Being a moral agent doesn't stop you from being unfairly accosted—or killed—by law enforcement. Being a moral agent doesn't mean you don't get death threats for trying to enroll your children in better public schools. Being a black moral agent is actually likely to get you in more trouble— not less. Blacks seeking there own betterment find roadblocks in every direction each step of the way.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
peterwwillis 10y ago
Dang, posted that to the wrong comment. White people push back against black kids going to their schools, businesses, etc. Few good jobs for blacks. Eventually white people move out, bringing their businesses, and revenue, with them to the suburbs. Money doesn't come into the city, no new businesses are developed, racially-divisive restrictions from banks make things worse. Crime and drug abuse increases, partly due to the squalid nature of the resulting segregation and lack of economic stability. Riots in a reaction to all this and the biggest civil rights leader of the century dying verifies white people's worst fears and the white flight moves into overdrive. With record low access to education, jobs, housing, record high drug use/crime, and racist authority figures/policies, what was a not very good situation becomes a terrible situation, and literally the whole society is engineered to fail, with no recourse for improvement. Read my other comment below for reading material.
- lwhalen 10y ago
  So what should white people have done in the past/what should they do in the future, to not be guilty of these terrible social sins that appear to be their fault no matter what actions they take?

by lwhalen 10y ago

Kinnard 10y ago

There's a lot more going on than that. If that's not obvious then I'd expect its because you haven't investigated the issues. Black communities and neighborhoods are specifically targeted for destruction and/or acquisition. Black families and communities have born the brunt of the War on Drugs. A community is not going to do well when a large swath of its fathers are rounded up, caged, and permanently barred from living a life of dignity.

lwhalen 10y ago
Excuse me? I grew up in Detroit and Flint, and come from a broken family. I earned my way up and out of those particular hell-holes, making my way to the East Coast and lately the West. Please, do tell me more about how I haven't investigated the issues of Black families and communities being targeted for acquisition, etc.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  Have you familiarized yourself with the psychology of trauma and the praxis of healing? Are you a descendant of Black slaves? Blacks who fled the South forming enclaves in the Cities of America were refugees. But unlike other refugees they never received the post-trauma treatment we give other survivors. They also encountered crushing discrimination wherever they went. They were shut-out of opportunities to improve their lives and the lives of their families, the effects of enslavement, slavery, terrorism, segregation, and discrimination do not disappear because a new law is passed making those things illegal. They reverberate across generations.
  - lwhalen 10y ago
    No, and yes. If I leave a location, I am so incredibly not-responsible for what happens to it after I'm gone. If you think otherwise, I suspect you have some cause-and-effect bits in your brain that are irreparably damaged.
    - Kinnard 10y ago
      I think you're misunderstanding. No one is saying that "you are responsible for what has happened in Flint and Detroit." We are saying that racism is one of the driving engines—if not THE driving engine—of these processes. EDIT: And being blind to that perpetuates the problems!
      - lwhalen 10y ago
        G-G-GP said "When people complain about shitty urban areas ... they're basically complaining about the state of the urban center which white people created when they moved out decades ago." I said, "Tell me how a person's absence means they're at fault for what happens to a place after they're gone". I've achieved some level of economic success since I moved myself out of 'the hood'. The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case.
        peterwwillis 10y ago
        > The implication I'm picking up on is that the blight that has continued/worsened since I've left is somehow, inexplicably, my fault for not sticking around. Please, explain how that is or is not the case. IMO comes down to the economics of how a city operates. The city needs money to provide services. The people need money to afford to patronize businesses, keep up their properties, and keep their city government afloat. Businesses need paying customers, and employees. If you don't stick around, you can't contribute to any of that, other than if you were perhaps a business owner. But then if the people working there aren't from there, or if the owner moves the money out of the city, it can still provide no net benefit. Try not to take it personally, but yes, moving away does not help and may even do the opposite of helping. But maybe if you stayed you would have ended up worse off and dragged the whole thing down? Can't say for sure, but it is obvious, and widely accepted by academics, that in the general case, white people leaving hurt black communities more than it helped. There's also the social aspect of which people that make up the community to consider. The less homogeneous the community, the more difficult it is for people to empathize with and help people different than them, which perpetuates systemic racism and inequality, etc.
awt 10y ago
Would you allow black people at least some moral agency? Certainly you'd say that blacks who avoid crime and instead thrive in the legit economy are responsible to at least some degree for their own success? Why would you not then hold those who become criminals equally responsible for their failure?
- Kinnard 10y ago
  The issue isn't moral agency. Being a moral agent doesn't stop you from being unfairly accosted—or killed—by law enforcement. Being a moral agent doesn't mean you don't get death threats for trying to enroll your children in better public schools. Being a black moral agent is actually likely to get you in more trouble— not less. Blacks seeking there own betterment find roadblocks in every direction each step of the way.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

peterwwillis 10y ago

Dang, posted that to the wrong comment. White people push back against black kids going to their schools, businesses, etc. Few good jobs for blacks. Eventually white people move out, bringing their businesses, and revenue, with them to the suburbs. Money doesn't come into the city, no new businesses are developed, racially-divisive restrictions from banks make things worse. Crime and drug abuse increases, partly due to the squalid nature of the resulting segregation and lack of economic stability. Riots in a reaction to all this and the biggest civil rights leader of the century dying verifies white people's worst fears and the white flight moves into overdrive. With record low access to education, jobs, housing, record high drug use/crime, and racist authority figures/policies, what was a not very good situation becomes a terrible situation, and literally the whole society is engineered to fail, with no recourse for improvement. Read my other comment below for reading material.

lwhalen 10y ago
So what should white people have done in the past/what should they do in the future, to not be guilty of these terrible social sins that appear to be their fault no matter what actions they take?