11 ms·

This turned out to be a lot more serious and interesting than I expected. From the headline, Hall sounded like a Mormon nutcase. But his plans are actually a lo

This turned out to be a lot more serious and interesting than I expected. From the headline, Hall sounded like a Mormon nutcase. But his plans are actually a lot more realistic than you'd expect: a planned development of 20,000 people is not crazy. He's also putting real effort into the engineering required to fulfill the density of his vision. It also sounds like he's trying to make the venture sustainable and appears to have found some success in revenue through licensing or more traditional development projects. He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though. He'll have to import voters before he can get anything approved. Maybe he just needs to listen to his PR people more. Downplay the Mormon angle, talk more about environmental efficiency, and pitch the communistic aspects—he might just get more sympathy.

T0T0R0 10y ago
Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons? Go ahead and change the word Mormon to something else, and notice how repugnant everything becomes.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  tried chickenshit, laughing ass off
- morgante 10y ago
  I tend to not be a fan of ideologues or zealots, no matter their persuasion. If a Jewish entrepreneur were basing their real estate development plans on Talmudic scholarship, I would be similarly skeptical.
- rbanffy 10y ago
  It's not the word "Mormon" (although South Park comes to mind) but the concept of founding communities designed according to religious ideology and the implicit idea that anyone of a different religion (or of no religion) would not be welcome.
  - ythl 10y ago
    > and the implicit idea that anyone of a different religion (or of no religion) would not be welcome. Historically, it's always been the other way around. Mormons have always tried to reach out to connect to their communities (vs. making an impenetrable fortress/cult community like FLDS), and were met with hostility due to differences in culture (i.e. polygamy, different bible beliefs, etc.). Most of the time it was the community that was not welcoming of the mormons. This seems to be the case again here in this article with Vermont.
    - pseudalopex 10y ago
      There's a difference between integrating into the community and redefining it.
- cowsandmilk 10y ago
  > Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons? In most cases I would agree. For instance, knowing Clayton Christensen is a Mormon should have no impact on someone's opinion of disruption theory. And there are cases, like Mitt Romney, where the media placed way too much of a focus on his family being Mormon. In this case though, the fact that the tycoon is Mormon plays a central role. His plans are literally based on drawings by Joseph Smith he found in researching mormon history. These are literally plans by the founder of Mormonism being implemented in the state where he was born (which is mentioned in the article as the reason why the tycoon is familiar with Vermont and thus chose it for his communities). This isn't an article making fun of Mormons and "their sacred underwear" or other "let's point and laugh" material. It is an article about a man who studied Mormon history and decided to implement the vision of its founder. Mormonism is a key element to the story.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    > the media placed way too much of a focus on his family being Mormon. You're telling me. Four years later I'm in London and the city buses are still advertising the "Book of Mormon" musical. (admittedly that wasn't 100% a Romney thing, but the timing was no coincidence, either.)
    - kbenson 10y ago
      What? The advertisements or the play itself? If you are attributing the play itself to the presidential race, I think you are mistaken, because the play was in development long before the Romney was a candidate, and is by the creators of South Park (Trey Parker and Matt Stone), which have often featured the Mormon religion in their works[1]. 1: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/ 2: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Wow and did you see that model community? All about work and money; no place whatsoever for recreation or privacy. A warren of worker bees farming and sweating - his "utopia"
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
  Yes, why would we place a harsh light on a group that has tried everything it can to strip rights away from LGBT folks and until recently had explicitly racist restrictions on who could do what within the church.
  - mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
    Are people not aware that black men were banned from being pastors until 1978? Or that the Church funded huge campaigns against gay marriage? And continues to use its influence over the Boy Scouts to slow progress there as well?
- deadowl 10y ago
  Scientologist? Jehovah's Witness?
- clavalle 10y ago
  I'm surprised how kindly people are treating this plan. Ignore any mention of Mormonism and talk about a planned community where to participate people must give up all of their net worth to that community, work for a 'business' that gives up all profit to that community for a 'dividend' from the shared resources, all under an explicit and rigid hierarchy and see how people react.
  - Zacru 10y ago
    I think the key is that it would be completely voluntary. Not many people are going to complain if you want to go off do your own thing.
    - clavalle 10y ago
      Having a theoretical option to do a thing is not the same as having the freedom to do it. Do you think the community is going to give that person's net worth back so they can start a new life? Do you think someone is going to spend time building a business just to walk away with nothing? What about the friends and family left behind who will no doubt be encouraged to shun you. Cults are completely voluntary, too, if you think only in theoreticals and ignore the practical implications of their policies.
dwaxe 10y ago
Vermont does already have the largest proportion of population of sovereign citizens in the nation. He may have picked it for that reason.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  What's a "sovereign citizen"?
  - disillusioned 10y ago
    Shorthand for lunatic who believes that rule of law doesn't apply to them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
    - pythia__ 10y ago
      Your characterization might suggest that they hold too to little faith in rule of law, but the opposite is true. What true-believer "sovereign citizens" do not recognize is that there is no rule of law in relations between sovereign entities, only deterrence. Having a Snow Crash-style personal nuke is a lowball estimate of where the barrier to entry lies.
  - jsonne 10y ago
    Fringe libertarians that believe that large swaths of the constitution, and thus many modern laws, don't apply to them. A common calling card is seeing a car with a sign that says "not for hire" as they make a distinction between driving "commercial activity" and "traveling" non-commercial. Many claim the latter doesn't require a drivers license. Youtube is littered with videos of them getting arrested in often violent confrontations with police officers as they refuse to comply with simple orders.
    - dzmien 10y ago
      Their motto: "Am I being detained?!"
snsr 10y ago
I think it's extremely unlikely that this development would be sustainable in rural VT. It's also worth noting that, despite the purported focus on 'sustainability', the corporation/cult ironically plans to rely upon drilling for fossil fuels and mining to remain profitable. Which is, by definition, not sustainable. Vermont's Act 250 also likely precludes this development. http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/permit-handbook/sheet47.pdf http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/permit-handbook/sheet...
- joeblo 10y ago
  I do not know much about Vermont however it seams like a good place, it is said in the article "you have selected the most incongruous place imaginable" Setting aside Indifference, Where would be a more congruous place?
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    Utah
- deadowl 10y ago
  And it's a district commission appointed by the governor that makes the decisions.
Shivetya 10y ago
I would love to see an Arcology, I always enjoyed Oath of Fealty mainly for the ideas he referenced about one. With regards to the article, a sustainable community built with the drive of someone similar to Disney might be able to work, the issue outside of money and drive is NIMBYs. We certainly have the technology to do it. However, you don't need complete independence, I think energy independence and protecting the environment with a family and pedestrian friendly layout are the best achievable goals
phineastcat 10y ago
"He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though," is an understatement. The largest city in Vermont, Burlington, only has a population of ~40,000. He's proposing a city half the size of Burlington in the middle of fucking nowhere. Vermonters are VERY resistant to people trying to change their landscape or way of life, and as you might expect, they (myself included) are not thrilled with this plan.
- sevensor 10y ago
  I think you can take consolation in the fact that it's going to be very hard to convince 20,000 people to pull up stakes and move to the middle of nowhere to tend crops and extract mineral resources. Or even to convince the church hierarchy to dispatch 20,000 Mormons to the middle of nowhere, assuming they could do that. (I don't know enough about Mormons to say whether this is possible.)
  - calebhicks 10y ago
    This venture has nothing to do with the Mormon (LDS) Church other than the fact this guy is a member. The leadership of the Church will not acknowledge or encourage the project in any official capacity, and will definitely not 'dispatch' members to live there. The only exception being if there are actually 20k people, there may be a single pair of missionaries assigned to visit every now and then.
    - clavalle 10y ago
      >This venture has nothing to do with the Mormon (LDS) Church other than the fact this guy is a member. That's the story, but in the same breath he says: 'A plat, says Hall, will be subject to state and regional laws, but will also be overseen by a board and heirachries of leaders with, it appears, strong Mormon Family values.' That's not exactly nothing.
  - closed 10y ago
    > convince the church hierarchy to dispatch 20,000 Mormons to the middle of nowhere, assuming they could do that. It's interesting, Mormonism originally encouraged its members to move to a central place, but around 1950 then prophet (i.e. leader) David O. McKay told people it was fine to remain at home [1]. There are some interesting pockets out there as a result of this "gathering attitude", though, like (AFAIK) a fairly substantial group of Polynesian Mormons in and around Independence, Missouri (a key area in Mormon theology)[2]. [1] https://www.lds.org/manual/presidents-of-the-church-student-manual/david-o-mckay-ninth-president-of-the-church?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/presidents-of-the-church-student-... (search the term "where they live" in the article) [2] https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/06/saints-in-independence?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/06/saints-in-independence?la...
jonnycowboy 10y ago
Maybe @sama needs to take some hint from him for his new cities project!

T0T0R0 10y ago

Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons? Go ahead and change the word Mormon to something else, and notice how repugnant everything becomes.

cloudjacker 10y ago
tried chickenshit, laughing ass off
morgante 10y ago
I tend to not be a fan of ideologues or zealots, no matter their persuasion. If a Jewish entrepreneur were basing their real estate development plans on Talmudic scholarship, I would be similarly skeptical.
rbanffy 10y ago
It's not the word "Mormon" (although South Park comes to mind) but the concept of founding communities designed according to religious ideology and the implicit idea that anyone of a different religion (or of no religion) would not be welcome.
- ythl 10y ago
  > and the implicit idea that anyone of a different religion (or of no religion) would not be welcome. Historically, it's always been the other way around. Mormons have always tried to reach out to connect to their communities (vs. making an impenetrable fortress/cult community like FLDS), and were met with hostility due to differences in culture (i.e. polygamy, different bible beliefs, etc.). Most of the time it was the community that was not welcoming of the mormons. This seems to be the case again here in this article with Vermont.
  - pseudalopex 10y ago
    There's a difference between integrating into the community and redefining it.
cowsandmilk 10y ago
> Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons? In most cases I would agree. For instance, knowing Clayton Christensen is a Mormon should have no impact on someone's opinion of disruption theory. And there are cases, like Mitt Romney, where the media placed way too much of a focus on his family being Mormon. In this case though, the fact that the tycoon is Mormon plays a central role. His plans are literally based on drawings by Joseph Smith he found in researching mormon history. These are literally plans by the founder of Mormonism being implemented in the state where he was born (which is mentioned in the article as the reason why the tycoon is familiar with Vermont and thus chose it for his communities). This isn't an article making fun of Mormons and "their sacred underwear" or other "let's point and laugh" material. It is an article about a man who studied Mormon history and decided to implement the vision of its founder. Mormonism is a key element to the story.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > the media placed way too much of a focus on his family being Mormon. You're telling me. Four years later I'm in London and the city buses are still advertising the "Book of Mormon" musical. (admittedly that wasn't 100% a Romney thing, but the timing was no coincidence, either.)
  - kbenson 10y ago
    What? The advertisements or the play itself? If you are attributing the play itself to the presidential race, I think you are mistaken, because the play was in development long before the Romney was a candidate, and is by the creators of South Park (Trey Parker and Matt Stone), which have often featured the Mormon religion in their works[1]. 1: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/ 2: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Wow and did you see that model community? All about work and money; no place whatsoever for recreation or privacy. A warren of worker bees farming and sweating - his "utopia"
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
Yes, why would we place a harsh light on a group that has tried everything it can to strip rights away from LGBT folks and until recently had explicitly racist restrictions on who could do what within the church.
- mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
  Are people not aware that black men were banned from being pastors until 1978? Or that the Church funded huge campaigns against gay marriage? And continues to use its influence over the Boy Scouts to slow progress there as well?
deadowl 10y ago
Scientologist? Jehovah's Witness?
clavalle 10y ago
I'm surprised how kindly people are treating this plan. Ignore any mention of Mormonism and talk about a planned community where to participate people must give up all of their net worth to that community, work for a 'business' that gives up all profit to that community for a 'dividend' from the shared resources, all under an explicit and rigid hierarchy and see how people react.
- Zacru 10y ago
  I think the key is that it would be completely voluntary. Not many people are going to complain if you want to go off do your own thing.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    Having a theoretical option to do a thing is not the same as having the freedom to do it. Do you think the community is going to give that person's net worth back so they can start a new life? Do you think someone is going to spend time building a business just to walk away with nothing? What about the friends and family left behind who will no doubt be encouraged to shun you. Cults are completely voluntary, too, if you think only in theoreticals and ignore the practical implications of their policies.

dwaxe 10y ago

Vermont does already have the largest proportion of population of sovereign citizens in the nation. He may have picked it for that reason.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
What's a "sovereign citizen"?
- disillusioned 10y ago
  Shorthand for lunatic who believes that rule of law doesn't apply to them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
  - pythia__ 10y ago
    Your characterization might suggest that they hold too to little faith in rule of law, but the opposite is true. What true-believer "sovereign citizens" do not recognize is that there is no rule of law in relations between sovereign entities, only deterrence. Having a Snow Crash-style personal nuke is a lowball estimate of where the barrier to entry lies.
- jsonne 10y ago
  Fringe libertarians that believe that large swaths of the constitution, and thus many modern laws, don't apply to them. A common calling card is seeing a car with a sign that says "not for hire" as they make a distinction between driving "commercial activity" and "traveling" non-commercial. Many claim the latter doesn't require a drivers license. Youtube is littered with videos of them getting arrested in often violent confrontations with police officers as they refuse to comply with simple orders.
  - dzmien 10y ago
    Their motto: "Am I being detained?!"

snsr 10y ago

I think it's extremely unlikely that this development would be sustainable in rural VT. It's also worth noting that, despite the purported focus on 'sustainability', the corporation/cult ironically plans to rely upon drilling for fossil fuels and mining to remain profitable. Which is, by definition, not sustainable. Vermont's Act 250 also likely precludes this development. http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/permit-handbook/sheet47.pdf http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/permit-handbook/sheet...

joeblo 10y ago
I do not know much about Vermont however it seams like a good place, it is said in the article "you have selected the most incongruous place imaginable" Setting aside Indifference, Where would be a more congruous place?
- wavefunction 10y ago
  Utah
deadowl 10y ago
And it's a district commission appointed by the governor that makes the decisions.

Shivetya 10y ago

I would love to see an Arcology, I always enjoyed Oath of Fealty mainly for the ideas he referenced about one. With regards to the article, a sustainable community built with the drive of someone similar to Disney might be able to work, the issue outside of money and drive is NIMBYs. We certainly have the technology to do it. However, you don't need complete independence, I think energy independence and protecting the environment with a family and pedestrian friendly layout are the best achievable goals

phineastcat 10y ago

"He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though," is an understatement. The largest city in Vermont, Burlington, only has a population of ~40,000. He's proposing a city half the size of Burlington in the middle of fucking nowhere. Vermonters are VERY resistant to people trying to change their landscape or way of life, and as you might expect, they (myself included) are not thrilled with this plan.

sevensor 10y ago
I think you can take consolation in the fact that it's going to be very hard to convince 20,000 people to pull up stakes and move to the middle of nowhere to tend crops and extract mineral resources. Or even to convince the church hierarchy to dispatch 20,000 Mormons to the middle of nowhere, assuming they could do that. (I don't know enough about Mormons to say whether this is possible.)
- calebhicks 10y ago
  This venture has nothing to do with the Mormon (LDS) Church other than the fact this guy is a member. The leadership of the Church will not acknowledge or encourage the project in any official capacity, and will definitely not 'dispatch' members to live there. The only exception being if there are actually 20k people, there may be a single pair of missionaries assigned to visit every now and then.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    >This venture has nothing to do with the Mormon (LDS) Church other than the fact this guy is a member. That's the story, but in the same breath he says: 'A plat, says Hall, will be subject to state and regional laws, but will also be overseen by a board and heirachries of leaders with, it appears, strong Mormon Family values.' That's not exactly nothing.
- closed 10y ago
  > convince the church hierarchy to dispatch 20,000 Mormons to the middle of nowhere, assuming they could do that. It's interesting, Mormonism originally encouraged its members to move to a central place, but around 1950 then prophet (i.e. leader) David O. McKay told people it was fine to remain at home [1]. There are some interesting pockets out there as a result of this "gathering attitude", though, like (AFAIK) a fairly substantial group of Polynesian Mormons in and around Independence, Missouri (a key area in Mormon theology)[2]. [1] https://www.lds.org/manual/presidents-of-the-church-student-manual/david-o-mckay-ninth-president-of-the-church?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/presidents-of-the-church-student-... (search the term "where they live" in the article) [2] https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/06/saints-in-independence?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/06/saints-in-independence?la...

jonnycowboy 10y ago

Maybe @sama needs to take some hint from him for his new cities project!