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This man is my uncle. FYI, I have NO affiliation with the project, but I have watched it with rapt attention since I have connections to both the Mormon communi

This man is my uncle. FYI, I have NO affiliation with the project, but I have watched it with rapt attention since I have connections to both the Mormon community and “Uncle David,” as well as very close Vermont friends, so I definitely see both sides of the coin. Again, ZERO affiliation other than relation, but happy to answer any questions from an unofficial role. ;)

themodelplumber 10y ago
That's really cool. Do you know of any sources for his inspiration other than JS? And any standout memories of your uncle you can share? He seems like a really intelligent guy. It'd be neat if some scaled-down version of this could be tested without creating so many waves.
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  He's definitely bright. My Dad and he worked together for many years, though not on this project. When I asked my Dad about it he said, “no comment.” Ha. I confess I don't know other sources of inspiration, though I'm certain he's very familiar with other engineering efforts of similar kind. The reporting in this article is pretty sound; he's drawing much of his inspiration from an abstract document.
  - mrchucklepants 10y ago
    I'm guessing I share an office with your brother then.
    - arxpoetica 10y ago
      Sounds likely.
douche 10y ago
Completely off-topic random question: how closely related are Mormon families, generally? With similarly insular populations (Mormons seem to tend to marry other Mormons), that have families that are larger than normal, it seems like family ties would proliferate and you'd end up with communities that are rather closely knit through webs of marriage.
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  Def. off topic. ;) UTAH-based (note the qualifier) are insular, though that is most certainly less and less the case. Both Mormon and Gentile (I'm being cheeky) populations are significant enough that marriages are factional across the board. There are still some not-so-distant 2nd, 3rd, and so-forth cousins, but that would be the exception not the rule (guesstimating here). I'm certain someone has done a study on this, and if not it'd be interesting to see one done.
- Jach 10y ago
  Mormons settled Utah in the 1800s, and in the 200 years since they've been quite incredibly successful at attracting other people to their faith (and consequently often to their state too) from other states, Canada, and European countries, with everyone multiplying fruitfully. There's plenty of genetic diversity. You could satisfy your curiosity with almost any specific Mormon couple though by asking how closely related they are, Mormons are good at keeping track of their ancestry.
  - SiVal 10y ago
    Sure, ask Matz (the Mormon creator of Ruby) how closely he's related to his wife. I hear Japan is pretty insular.
- kbutler 10y ago
  Actually, there's a site to help answer the question "how closely are we related?" https://www.relativefinder.org https://www.relativefinder.org It uses information from https://www.familysearch.org/ https://www.familysearch.org/ (sponsored by the LDS church, but widely used by those interested in genealogy). To get started, you'd need to enter some data to get back to your deceased ancestors. My wife and I are "9th cousins once removed" (common ancestor 10-11 generations back).
wwweston 10y ago
Since we're getting personal: do we know each other? I went to OHS with some Halls. (Possibly not the question you had in mind, but...)
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  Yup.
morgante 10y ago
Do you have any idea how sustainable/profitable his ventures are? It sounds like he's been trying to license technology to finance the venture. There's also a mention of other nearer-term real estate developments. Has any of this worked, or is he basically just spending his fortune down?
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  He's definitely worked in “suspect” environmental industries (industrial), but his flagship product (intellipipe; look it up) was an engineering marvel in redefining how to get oil with far less land disruption. One could look at that with a scant eye, and I wouldn't judge. I intend to ask him at some point how he maintains that seeming contradiction in his mind. He's said it himself (in other articles), though tongue in cheek, he plans to die broke. But he's simultaneously investing in multiple technology innovations, hoping to forward the cause. (My words, not his.)
porker 10y ago
Off-topic too but are all Mormons successful, or do we (the world-wide general public) just see them because they talk about being wealthy, successful and Mormon at the same time, and the evangelists give the impression too because they all wear well-cut suits?
- Jach 10y ago
  A look at Utah's various statistics you might want to use as measures of overall success ought to paint a different picture, also visiting different areas of the state for a while will too. But that's not to say you'd be wrong in giving a higher prior for success after hearing someone is a proper Mormon (and many Mormons the world generally hears about are even if the majority aren't and will never get a temple recommend). Proper Mormons don't drink alcohol, smoke, or drink caffeine, they try to marry young, have children, stay in contact with their (extended and large) families, are active Church-goers (and hence active in the Community), and they pay an extra tax to the Church without becoming financially crippled. This is basically an immense filter for self discipline / resistance to temptation and solid social networks, which tend to be factors with a lot of successful people.
- kbutler 10y ago
  Not all by any means. But the church does encourage self-reliance, frugality, saving, education, emergency preparedness, and hard work; promotes stable families; and discourages various expensive and life-destroying vices.
jonathanoliver 10y ago
Is your name Trace?
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  No.
  - jonathanoliver 10y ago
    Okay, you're not one of Charlotte's kids.
    - arxpoetica 10y ago
      Cousins.
sevensor 10y ago
Can you comment on how hard it would be to get 20,000 Mormons to move to Vermont? Would such a big migration have to be endorsed by the church hierarchy? Where would these 20,000 people work?
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  David has said that he in no way intends this to be a Mormon community, that such an idea is the insular failure of early Mormon community-building efforts. I tend to agree with him on that notion, though history is a different topic. But New Vistas is certainly not a "Mormon" effort, just inspired by an early and obscure Mormon document. That said, the idea of community building is doctrinal to Mormonism, so there's that. But again, he has no intentions of transplanting 20,000 Mormons into Vermont and thinks that would be a failure of the project. As to the feasibility of transplanting 20,000 people from all walks of life? Completely different matter. In his grand vision, they would all eat, live, play, and work in the community. Is that possible? There are larger cities, some planned, some more organically grown from immigration.
  - sevensor 10y ago
    Thanks for the clarification! I'm definitely interested in seeing how utopian projects like this progress, although I think his chances of attracting settlers are very slim.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  They moved to Utah, once. This seems like exactly the demographic that has, historically, been willing to move to the wilderness for idealism.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    They have had less success moving en masse into populated areas. See: The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri and the subsequent failed attempt to do the same thing in Illinois that eventually lead to their founder's murder.
- 10y ago

themodelplumber 10y ago

That's really cool. Do you know of any sources for his inspiration other than JS? And any standout memories of your uncle you can share? He seems like a really intelligent guy. It'd be neat if some scaled-down version of this could be tested without creating so many waves.

arxpoetica 10y ago
He's definitely bright. My Dad and he worked together for many years, though not on this project. When I asked my Dad about it he said, “no comment.” Ha. I confess I don't know other sources of inspiration, though I'm certain he's very familiar with other engineering efforts of similar kind. The reporting in this article is pretty sound; he's drawing much of his inspiration from an abstract document.
- mrchucklepants 10y ago
  I'm guessing I share an office with your brother then.
  - arxpoetica 10y ago
    Sounds likely.

douche 10y ago

Completely off-topic random question: how closely related are Mormon families, generally? With similarly insular populations (Mormons seem to tend to marry other Mormons), that have families that are larger than normal, it seems like family ties would proliferate and you'd end up with communities that are rather closely knit through webs of marriage.

arxpoetica 10y ago
Def. off topic. ;) UTAH-based (note the qualifier) are insular, though that is most certainly less and less the case. Both Mormon and Gentile (I'm being cheeky) populations are significant enough that marriages are factional across the board. There are still some not-so-distant 2nd, 3rd, and so-forth cousins, but that would be the exception not the rule (guesstimating here). I'm certain someone has done a study on this, and if not it'd be interesting to see one done.
Jach 10y ago
Mormons settled Utah in the 1800s, and in the 200 years since they've been quite incredibly successful at attracting other people to their faith (and consequently often to their state too) from other states, Canada, and European countries, with everyone multiplying fruitfully. There's plenty of genetic diversity. You could satisfy your curiosity with almost any specific Mormon couple though by asking how closely related they are, Mormons are good at keeping track of their ancestry.
- SiVal 10y ago
  Sure, ask Matz (the Mormon creator of Ruby) how closely he's related to his wife. I hear Japan is pretty insular.
kbutler 10y ago
Actually, there's a site to help answer the question "how closely are we related?" https://www.relativefinder.org https://www.relativefinder.org It uses information from https://www.familysearch.org/ https://www.familysearch.org/ (sponsored by the LDS church, but widely used by those interested in genealogy). To get started, you'd need to enter some data to get back to your deceased ancestors. My wife and I are "9th cousins once removed" (common ancestor 10-11 generations back).

wwweston 10y ago

Since we're getting personal: do we know each other? I went to OHS with some Halls. (Possibly not the question you had in mind, but...)

arxpoetica 10y ago
Yup.

morgante 10y ago

Do you have any idea how sustainable/profitable his ventures are? It sounds like he's been trying to license technology to finance the venture. There's also a mention of other nearer-term real estate developments. Has any of this worked, or is he basically just spending his fortune down?

arxpoetica 10y ago
He's definitely worked in “suspect” environmental industries (industrial), but his flagship product (intellipipe; look it up) was an engineering marvel in redefining how to get oil with far less land disruption. One could look at that with a scant eye, and I wouldn't judge. I intend to ask him at some point how he maintains that seeming contradiction in his mind. He's said it himself (in other articles), though tongue in cheek, he plans to die broke. But he's simultaneously investing in multiple technology innovations, hoping to forward the cause. (My words, not his.)

porker 10y ago

Off-topic too but are all Mormons successful, or do we (the world-wide general public) just see them because they talk about being wealthy, successful and Mormon at the same time, and the evangelists give the impression too because they all wear well-cut suits?

Jach 10y ago
A look at Utah's various statistics you might want to use as measures of overall success ought to paint a different picture, also visiting different areas of the state for a while will too. But that's not to say you'd be wrong in giving a higher prior for success after hearing someone is a proper Mormon (and many Mormons the world generally hears about are even if the majority aren't and will never get a temple recommend). Proper Mormons don't drink alcohol, smoke, or drink caffeine, they try to marry young, have children, stay in contact with their (extended and large) families, are active Church-goers (and hence active in the Community), and they pay an extra tax to the Church without becoming financially crippled. This is basically an immense filter for self discipline / resistance to temptation and solid social networks, which tend to be factors with a lot of successful people.
kbutler 10y ago
Not all by any means. But the church does encourage self-reliance, frugality, saving, education, emergency preparedness, and hard work; promotes stable families; and discourages various expensive and life-destroying vices.

jonathanoliver 10y ago

Is your name Trace?

arxpoetica 10y ago
No.
- jonathanoliver 10y ago
  Okay, you're not one of Charlotte's kids.
  - arxpoetica 10y ago
    Cousins.

sevensor 10y ago

Can you comment on how hard it would be to get 20,000 Mormons to move to Vermont? Would such a big migration have to be endorsed by the church hierarchy? Where would these 20,000 people work?

arxpoetica 10y ago
David has said that he in no way intends this to be a Mormon community, that such an idea is the insular failure of early Mormon community-building efforts. I tend to agree with him on that notion, though history is a different topic. But New Vistas is certainly not a "Mormon" effort, just inspired by an early and obscure Mormon document. That said, the idea of community building is doctrinal to Mormonism, so there's that. But again, he has no intentions of transplanting 20,000 Mormons into Vermont and thinks that would be a failure of the project. As to the feasibility of transplanting 20,000 people from all walks of life? Completely different matter. In his grand vision, they would all eat, live, play, and work in the community. Is that possible? There are larger cities, some planned, some more organically grown from immigration.
- sevensor 10y ago
  Thanks for the clarification! I'm definitely interested in seeing how utopian projects like this progress, although I think his chances of attracting settlers are very slim.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
They moved to Utah, once. This seems like exactly the demographic that has, historically, been willing to move to the wilderness for idealism.
- clavalle 10y ago
  They have had less success moving en masse into populated areas. See: The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri and the subsequent failed attempt to do the same thing in Illinois that eventually lead to their founder's murder.
10y ago