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> have very toxic-to-mine, manufacture, and dispose-of batteries. This is absolutely false. Lithium is not toxic to mine at all. It isn't even "mined". http:/

by maratd 10y ago

> have very toxic-to-mine, manufacture, and dispose-of batteries. This is absolutely false. Lithium is not toxic to mine at all. It isn't even "mined". http://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/12/lithium-mining-vs-oil-sands-meme-thorough-response/ http://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/12/lithium-mining-vs-oil-sa... > Electric cars cause pollution They cause zero pollution when you have solar panels on your roof and the car is properly scrapped after you're done with it. > The way to "save the planet" is to not drive. This is silly and impractical.

eyelidlessness 10y ago
> They cause zero pollution when you have solar panels on your roof and the car is properly scrapped after you're done with it. Unless you factor in manufacturing.
- maratd 10y ago
  Why? If you're recycling/biodegrading 100% of the old vehicle and producing the new with solar energy, you should have zero pollution.
ams6110 10y ago
There's more than lithium in the batteries, and other components such as Cobalt or Arsenic are not exactly nontoxic. On balance however, lithium ion batteries are less toxic than alternatives. Realistically, at present most EV owners will not charge their cars from solar panels but from the utility mains and that means coal-generated electricity in many if not most areas. Car manufacturing involves a tremendous investment of energy to mine and produce steel, aluminum, rubber, plastics, and electronics. Recycling itself consumes more energy, and in many cases raw virgin product is cheaper than recycled. Not driving is impractical. Driving less, when possible, is worth considering. Right now if you need to buy a car, the most environmentally friendly choice is probably a used (no new manufacturing) fuel-efficient conventional car.
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  It is perhaps an artifact of the bay area but there are many many Tesla vehicles here and many of them seem to use the superchargers for charging[1]. But the question of pollution and CO2 comparisons between ICE vehicles and electric ones, comes down firmly on the side of the electric vehicles (for the case of California at least). The thermal efficiency of converting gas to electricity is over 47% and the closest an ICE can come is about 38%. Lots of additional information from the EIA here [2]. [1] A friend of mine who owns one said the only thing worse than the 20 minute charge time is waiting 20 minutes to plug into an available spot. [2] http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec17.pdf http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec17.pdf
  - ams6110 10y ago
    It probably is, because there are no superchargers within 100 miles of where I live, and perhaps not coincidentally, Teslas are a very rare sight.
  - sah2ed 10y ago
    > [1] A friend of mine who owns one said the only thing worse than the 20 minute charge time is waiting 20 minutes to plug into an available spot. Actually it would be a lot more efficient if your friend charged at home or at work rather than drive all the way to a supercharger station. You would do well to point your friend to this PSA [1] by Elon Musk and J B Straubel during the Q&A at Tesla's shareholder meeting some months ago. [1] https://youtu.be/O1aPRKSuXr0?t=650 https://youtu.be/O1aPRKSuXr0?t=650
- int_19h 10y ago
  It's kinda meaningless to look at the hypothetical future with automated cars all around (how far away is that? at least a decade, I'd bet), and assume that the current distribution of power sources still applies.
wycx 10y ago
In addition to bainal brines, lithium is also produced by mining spodumene from pegmatites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite

by maratd 10y ago

eyelidlessness 10y ago

> They cause zero pollution when you have solar panels on your roof and the car is properly scrapped after you're done with it. Unless you factor in manufacturing.

maratd 10y ago
Why? If you're recycling/biodegrading 100% of the old vehicle and producing the new with solar energy, you should have zero pollution.

ams6110 10y ago

There's more than lithium in the batteries, and other components such as Cobalt or Arsenic are not exactly nontoxic. On balance however, lithium ion batteries are less toxic than alternatives. Realistically, at present most EV owners will not charge their cars from solar panels but from the utility mains and that means coal-generated electricity in many if not most areas. Car manufacturing involves a tremendous investment of energy to mine and produce steel, aluminum, rubber, plastics, and electronics. Recycling itself consumes more energy, and in many cases raw virgin product is cheaper than recycled. Not driving is impractical. Driving less, when possible, is worth considering. Right now if you need to buy a car, the most environmentally friendly choice is probably a used (no new manufacturing) fuel-efficient conventional car.

ChuckMcM 10y ago
It is perhaps an artifact of the bay area but there are many many Tesla vehicles here and many of them seem to use the superchargers for charging[1]. But the question of pollution and CO2 comparisons between ICE vehicles and electric ones, comes down firmly on the side of the electric vehicles (for the case of California at least). The thermal efficiency of converting gas to electricity is over 47% and the closest an ICE can come is about 38%. Lots of additional information from the EIA here [2]. [1] A friend of mine who owns one said the only thing worse than the 20 minute charge time is waiting 20 minutes to plug into an available spot. [2] http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec17.pdf http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec17.pdf
- ams6110 10y ago
  It probably is, because there are no superchargers within 100 miles of where I live, and perhaps not coincidentally, Teslas are a very rare sight.
- sah2ed 10y ago
  > [1] A friend of mine who owns one said the only thing worse than the 20 minute charge time is waiting 20 minutes to plug into an available spot. Actually it would be a lot more efficient if your friend charged at home or at work rather than drive all the way to a supercharger station. You would do well to point your friend to this PSA [1] by Elon Musk and J B Straubel during the Q&A at Tesla's shareholder meeting some months ago. [1] https://youtu.be/O1aPRKSuXr0?t=650 https://youtu.be/O1aPRKSuXr0?t=650
int_19h 10y ago
It's kinda meaningless to look at the hypothetical future with automated cars all around (how far away is that? at least a decade, I'd bet), and assume that the current distribution of power sources still applies.

wycx 10y ago

In addition to bainal brines, lithium is also produced by mining spodumene from pegmatites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite