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I'm from Salt Lake City and a former Mormon. I want to emphasize former because I'm in no way affiliated with the church and have a bit of lifelong bitterness t

I'm from Salt Lake City and a former Mormon. I want to emphasize former because I'm in no way affiliated with the church and have a bit of lifelong bitterness toward it (used to be much worse, mostly over it now) and while I think a lot of things about Mormonism are completely stupid, they sure know how to build cities and be settlers and pioneers. I think that mentality has passed through generations and it's really exciting to see this kind of advanced utopian dream come to life, even if it pisses off neighbors and if it ultimately fails. I'm obsessed with cities and I would love to see this turn into the vision that Joseph smith had in mind, even if all his other visions are laughable loads of whatever.

cookiecaper 10y ago
There is no connection to actual Mormonism here. If there was, Hall would certainly not be encountering serious opposition in Provo, of all places. Hall's practices are immediately suspect because he's advertising his affiliation with the Mormon Church as a major part of this endeavor. It's extremely common for scammers to try to exploit religious people by falsely claiming some sort of sanction or approval from religious bodies. I also wish Hall luck in building a sustainable, walkable, high-end development, and in reading other articles about his clashes with neighbors in Provo I was even kind of rooting for him, but I'm really put off by the insinuation that either the Mormon Church or Mormon doctrine has anything to do with it.
- jonah 10y ago
  How can there be no connection. The guy is mormon, the inspiration is directly from Smith's writings, etc. I don't know anything about the writings, but from the article, it seems Smith was fairly clear in wanting to do something like this. Of course, yes this is an entrepreneur wanting to do a grandiose thing, but to say there's no connection is silly. (I'm not a Mormon, and have no horse in this race.)
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    Because in Mormon (and Christian) eschatology, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is a real thing. It's not just one man's experiment to build a utopia. Zion is swamped in religious significance. It can't be built without specific forms of divine help, and it's not Zion without specific markers, like divinely-authorized temples. Smith's early drawings are good as far as they go, but they are non-canonical. They are of only historical interest to the Church. It is fine that Hall has drawn inspiration from them, but it is not fine to imply that there is any connection between Zion the Mormon Concept and Hall's NewVistas project. A copy of an old drawing isn't the distinctive characteristic of Zion. The distinctive characteristic is that a group of people within a specific geographic region are so completely realizing their religious precepts that divine beings make a home there. Joseph Smith's teachings re: Zion are meaningless outside of that context, and invoking Zion in any other way is sacrilege (doubly so when it's to promote a commercial endeavor).
    - jonah 10y ago
      So you're saying the true Zion / New Jerusalem of the end times will come about organically rather than in a pre-planned fashion? Fair enough. (I'm not up on my eschatology enough to get into this further.)
      - joshontheweb 10y ago
        I think what he means is that mormon concept of Zion/New Jerusalem cannot be brought about by someone with his standing in the mormon church. It would need to be initiated by the leaders of the church who presumably act in God's name. In fact, the location of the New Jerusalem has already been prophesied. It is supposed to be built up in Missouri. It was already started but never finished. You can go and see where the corner stones for the temples were placed decades ago but never completed. It doesn't mean this guy can't create a nice community but it will never be Zion in the mormon sense of the word. Source: I was raised mormon and my family used to go visit the location where Zion was to be created.
        cookiecaper 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- elliotec 10y ago
  Hall is literally trying to build Joseph Smith's version of Zion, so it is directly tied to LDS doctrine by any definition.
aaron-lebo 10y ago
From a sustainable community aspect it is fascinating. However, look at what he's proposing. Edit: lots of people moving to a state of 600,000 people, with the first locations built up around areas with strong connections to Joseph Smith. It probably won't work. However, should he get only 60,000 people and the majority of them Mormons, yeah, Vermont changes completely. Mormons tend to vote along church lines, they outbreed everyone else, as you said, they know how to colonize. I don't want to cast a wet blanket over all Mormons, but you can see why this would make people unhappy. Vermont with its socialist senator could became East Utah in a generation.
- jonah 10y ago
  Not 20 million in VT. 20,000 people in each city. 1,000 cities around the world.
  - ragazzina 10y ago
    “I’m the darn guy who caused all these problems,” Hall tells the seated group by way of introduction. He doesn’t let his PR handlers do any talking, and he doesn’t rein in the extent of his vision. Despite Vermont’s beauty, he points out, the state has high levels of pollution and sprawl, paired with poverty and unemployment. He recounts visiting Vermont as a boy, memories of which, along with Smith’s birthplace and memorial, drew him to this state, and says he would preserve the state’s natural grandeur. “In my crazy mind, two-thirds of Vermont would be wilderness and one-third would be the farms that are occupied, and you’d have 20 million people in Vermont,” he tells the group, slapping the table. “That’s a crazy idea. But that’s what I can lay out.”
    - snsr 10y ago
      I hope this fails quickly and resolutely.
      - j2bax 10y ago
        Why?

cookiecaper 10y ago

There is no connection to actual Mormonism here. If there was, Hall would certainly not be encountering serious opposition in Provo, of all places. Hall's practices are immediately suspect because he's advertising his affiliation with the Mormon Church as a major part of this endeavor. It's extremely common for scammers to try to exploit religious people by falsely claiming some sort of sanction or approval from religious bodies. I also wish Hall luck in building a sustainable, walkable, high-end development, and in reading other articles about his clashes with neighbors in Provo I was even kind of rooting for him, but I'm really put off by the insinuation that either the Mormon Church or Mormon doctrine has anything to do with it.

jonah 10y ago
How can there be no connection. The guy is mormon, the inspiration is directly from Smith's writings, etc. I don't know anything about the writings, but from the article, it seems Smith was fairly clear in wanting to do something like this. Of course, yes this is an entrepreneur wanting to do a grandiose thing, but to say there's no connection is silly. (I'm not a Mormon, and have no horse in this race.)
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Because in Mormon (and Christian) eschatology, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is a real thing. It's not just one man's experiment to build a utopia. Zion is swamped in religious significance. It can't be built without specific forms of divine help, and it's not Zion without specific markers, like divinely-authorized temples. Smith's early drawings are good as far as they go, but they are non-canonical. They are of only historical interest to the Church. It is fine that Hall has drawn inspiration from them, but it is not fine to imply that there is any connection between Zion the Mormon Concept and Hall's NewVistas project. A copy of an old drawing isn't the distinctive characteristic of Zion. The distinctive characteristic is that a group of people within a specific geographic region are so completely realizing their religious precepts that divine beings make a home there. Joseph Smith's teachings re: Zion are meaningless outside of that context, and invoking Zion in any other way is sacrilege (doubly so when it's to promote a commercial endeavor).
  - jonah 10y ago
    So you're saying the true Zion / New Jerusalem of the end times will come about organically rather than in a pre-planned fashion? Fair enough. (I'm not up on my eschatology enough to get into this further.)
    - joshontheweb 10y ago
      I think what he means is that mormon concept of Zion/New Jerusalem cannot be brought about by someone with his standing in the mormon church. It would need to be initiated by the leaders of the church who presumably act in God's name. In fact, the location of the New Jerusalem has already been prophesied. It is supposed to be built up in Missouri. It was already started but never finished. You can go and see where the corner stones for the temples were placed decades ago but never completed. It doesn't mean this guy can't create a nice community but it will never be Zion in the mormon sense of the word. Source: I was raised mormon and my family used to go visit the location where Zion was to be created.
      - cookiecaper 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
elliotec 10y ago
Hall is literally trying to build Joseph Smith's version of Zion, so it is directly tied to LDS doctrine by any definition.

aaron-lebo 10y ago

From a sustainable community aspect it is fascinating. However, look at what he's proposing. Edit: lots of people moving to a state of 600,000 people, with the first locations built up around areas with strong connections to Joseph Smith. It probably won't work. However, should he get only 60,000 people and the majority of them Mormons, yeah, Vermont changes completely. Mormons tend to vote along church lines, they outbreed everyone else, as you said, they know how to colonize. I don't want to cast a wet blanket over all Mormons, but you can see why this would make people unhappy. Vermont with its socialist senator could became East Utah in a generation.

jonah 10y ago
Not 20 million in VT. 20,000 people in each city. 1,000 cities around the world.
- ragazzina 10y ago
  “I’m the darn guy who caused all these problems,” Hall tells the seated group by way of introduction. He doesn’t let his PR handlers do any talking, and he doesn’t rein in the extent of his vision. Despite Vermont’s beauty, he points out, the state has high levels of pollution and sprawl, paired with poverty and unemployment. He recounts visiting Vermont as a boy, memories of which, along with Smith’s birthplace and memorial, drew him to this state, and says he would preserve the state’s natural grandeur. “In my crazy mind, two-thirds of Vermont would be wilderness and one-third would be the farms that are occupied, and you’d have 20 million people in Vermont,” he tells the group, slapping the table. “That’s a crazy idea. But that’s what I can lay out.”
  - snsr 10y ago
    I hope this fails quickly and resolutely.
    - j2bax 10y ago
      Why?