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> you are absolutely not describing a political movement. You are describing a militia through and through. The point I'm making is that all political movement
by grandalf 10y ago
> you are absolutely not describing a political movement. You are describing a militia through and through.
The point I'm making is that all political movements want to control people, which entails the direct or indirect use of force. Pro/anti choice activists in the US may not use suicide bombers, but they want to get a law passed that will jail people who do the thing they don't like (perform abortions vs have abortions). This is indirect use of lethal force, because it has been effectively institutionalized in the US.
It's idealistic or naive to believe that political movements do not exist for the purpose of exerting direct or indirect lethal force on others. This is a cynical view but it is true (though there are other motives for movements/organizations to exist, those exist alongside obtaining power/influence).
Drone pilots do not have to be zealots in order to fly a drone into a village and unleash a payload on a bungalow full of people, they must simply go through military training. Propaganda indoctrination is part of the US military's training approach, because studies have found that humans really don't like killing other humans if they think of them as human. The propaganda makes it psychologically easier for soldiers to follow orders and do their job.
Surely a so-called zealot who is doing a suicide bombing believes some similar sort of propaganda. Many American soldiers have bravely charged into combat zones with full knowledge there was a good chance they would perish. Why imagine a suicide bomber as fundamentally different when he is fundamentally similar?
Yes, ISIS does some really nasty things and appears to have no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. It's fine to disapprove of those things, but I think it's unfair to focus on the inevitable moral differences in an asymmetric conflict... they always exist. The British were outraged that the revolutionary soldiers would take cover behind a tree to take aim.
The moral tolerance that each side has for outrageous acts is context dependent. There is not any cultural/institutional superiority or inferiority involved. Our own military leaders know this and are ready to do whatever is necessary to get results (see Rumsfeld's strong defense of torture techniques).
So moral outrage about ISIS is part of the propaganda message to encourage Americans to support the war. Many people have died in the war so far, and it is not Americans that are dying, it's the brown skinned people we wantonly slaughter. This is abetted by the perception that the groups are illegitimate and morally bankrupt. It is we who are imposing our will on people thousands of miles away so that we can take natural resources from their land.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoThis jumping from 'its a law' to "the government will kill you" is sophomoric. Its repeated on HN from time to time. Laws are to inform, and to help folks conform to expectations, and yes sometimes result in somebody being fined or even incarcerated. Its not all about killing everybody. I suppose all food is death too! Because everybody who eats, dies. Such claptrap was fun to talk about in college; lets get past this kind of cheap philosophizing.
- grandalf 10y ago> This jumping Not sure where you perceive this jump as having occurred. My point is just that force is a part of any government, arguably a necessary part, which is why fledgling governments often focus on it.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoAll that sophomoric doubletalk about 'lethal force' thrown in there for effect I guess
- grandalf 10y agoI don't see how it's sophomoric or "double talk". Control/institutionalization of lethal force is something governments do in the following ways: - supply police and military with weapons and authorize killing during conflict (defensive or offensive) - perform executions of those sentenced to death - punish those who try to use lethal force without permission (murderers) - to wield and threaten the use of force in order to achieve some objective (domestically or internationally). The presidential motorcade is essentially a parade of tanks that happen to look like limousines. Hence, transitioning from a state of relative anarchy to a state of governance requires the institutionalization of lethal force. There is a great deal of variability in the ways force is used, some of which we view as just and others as unjust. The details of this are not relevant to my broader point, which is simply that force and governance are deeply intertwined. If you are a high class member of society, the force generally all works on your behalf. If you are a low class member, it may often work against you. The edge cases (a cop shooting someone at a traffic stop) tend to effect lower class members disproportionally. It's idealistic to believe that in a majoritarian democracy, even the democratically chosen reasonable uses of force are fair to everyone they impact. I'm not sure which specific points you disagree with, so it is difficult to address them, but if you still disagree I'm willing to try.