4 ms·

Dart is awesome. Just because currently the community is still small doesn't mean much. Google is working on so much great stuff that Dart becomes more compell

by zoechi 10y ago

Dart is awesome. Just because currently the community is still small doesn't mean much. Google is working on so much great stuff that Dart becomes more compelling every month. They are lying low since awhile with public announcements, but if you follow the commits there is so much work being done. In a few months it will become hard to ignore Dart. The combined development (TS+Dart) was slowing Angular development down and contribution was painful because one needed knowledge of both languages. There are notable downsides for the split development but I fully understand the decision. Implementing everything in a way that it can be translated into the other language was a real pain and limited both versions to a common denominator which prevented both versions to benefit from the advantages of their respective language.

themihai 10y ago
A Dart-like language designed with WASM as target will make sense now but I think Dart(as it is now)is already doomed to die. The performance promissed is just not there.
- wstrange 10y ago
  I have not followed WASM that closely, but I believe they are talking about adding DOM integration and other features to support languages like Dart. It will probably not happen quickly - but in the meantime, dart2js does an admirable job.
- korm 10y ago
  Javascript compiled from Dart is as fast as normal Js, in some cases faster. And in the server it outperforms Node according to the Techempower benchmarks. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/
  - themihai 10y ago
    In some cases is slower. Last time I've checked large apps were freezing on safari. The point is that it's not signifiantly faster than js so I think it's safe to say that it failed its main objective.
    - mswift42 10y ago
      Dart's main objective has never been to be faster than js. Dart's goal was to make a modern, 'sane' language.
      - themihai 10y ago
        How is that? As far as I can remember performance was always the main reason. The main contributor previously worked on hotspot. It was argued that javascript hit the limits on performance and you need a clean slate, especially due the low power of the mobile devices. "Batteries included" and fixing the javascript syntatic issues was presented as secondary objective. This might have been changed after the VM was dropped from the project. Dart was supposed to be a response to native apps which failed miserably. It's a well design ecosystem for sure but it can't even compete with javascript, let alone native apps.
        isoos 10y ago
        The keyword you are looking for is Dartium (Chrome with Dart support compiled), and if you are benchmarking a Dart app in Dartium vs. a JS app in any of the browsers, chances are the Dartium app will be faster. The technical goal was achieved, the political support lacked.
        themihai 10y ago
        Even with Dartium it didn't reach a speed close to native. I don't doubt that if more effort would be put in the VM the perf could get better but as it is now Dartium is no longer an option.
        isoos 10y ago
        Dartium doesn't need to be close to native, it just needs to beat every JS engine out there; in other words: the comparison should be in the same league. Last time I've checked it did beat them.
- zoechi 10y ago
  I think the performance is there, it's just gained from JS VM optimizations instead of an alternative VM in the browser. The advantage is that it gets the benefit on all browsers (even those that would never add a Dart VM) and all other xxxToJS languages get the benefit as well. Dart has enough other advantages so being on par with others on performance doesn't mean Dart has to die.
  - themihai 10y ago
    Maybe won't die but it won't thrive either. I guess it's the new GWT. Not a bad thing but it won't disrupt the web development for sure.
kmiroslav 10y ago
> Dart is awesome. Just because currently the community is still small doesn't mean much. Well, it does mean something. Go is evidence that languages can gain momentum very fast so the fact that Dart still hasn't should be a bit of a concern (and probably partially caused by Typescript's popularity).
- Scorpiion 10y ago
  Dart does have some momentum as well and it's younger than Go. Go's 1.0 release was at 28 of March 2012, whereas Dart's was November 14, 2013. - https://blog.golang.org/go-version-1-is-released https://blog.golang.org/go-version-1-is-released - http://news.dartlang.org/2013/11/dart-10-stable-sdk-for-structured-web.html http://news.dartlang.org/2013/11/dart-10-stable-sdk-for-stru...
chm 10y ago
I'm working on a project in Dart. It just works, and it feels simple, and the type system means I can think more cleanly about my code. I like it, and this news is great!

by zoechi 10y ago

themihai 10y ago

A Dart-like language designed with WASM as target will make sense now but I think Dart(as it is now)is already doomed to die. The performance promissed is just not there.

wstrange 10y ago
I have not followed WASM that closely, but I believe they are talking about adding DOM integration and other features to support languages like Dart. It will probably not happen quickly - but in the meantime, dart2js does an admirable job.
korm 10y ago
Javascript compiled from Dart is as fast as normal Js, in some cases faster. And in the server it outperforms Node according to the Techempower benchmarks. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/
- themihai 10y ago
  In some cases is slower. Last time I've checked large apps were freezing on safari. The point is that it's not signifiantly faster than js so I think it's safe to say that it failed its main objective.
  - mswift42 10y ago
    Dart's main objective has never been to be faster than js. Dart's goal was to make a modern, 'sane' language.
    - themihai 10y ago
      How is that? As far as I can remember performance was always the main reason. The main contributor previously worked on hotspot. It was argued that javascript hit the limits on performance and you need a clean slate, especially due the low power of the mobile devices. "Batteries included" and fixing the javascript syntatic issues was presented as secondary objective. This might have been changed after the VM was dropped from the project. Dart was supposed to be a response to native apps which failed miserably. It's a well design ecosystem for sure but it can't even compete with javascript, let alone native apps.
      - isoos 10y ago
        The keyword you are looking for is Dartium (Chrome with Dart support compiled), and if you are benchmarking a Dart app in Dartium vs. a JS app in any of the browsers, chances are the Dartium app will be faster. The technical goal was achieved, the political support lacked.
        themihai 10y ago
        Even with Dartium it didn't reach a speed close to native. I don't doubt that if more effort would be put in the VM the perf could get better but as it is now Dartium is no longer an option.
        isoos 10y ago
        Dartium doesn't need to be close to native, it just needs to beat every JS engine out there; in other words: the comparison should be in the same league. Last time I've checked it did beat them.
zoechi 10y ago
I think the performance is there, it's just gained from JS VM optimizations instead of an alternative VM in the browser. The advantage is that it gets the benefit on all browsers (even those that would never add a Dart VM) and all other xxxToJS languages get the benefit as well. Dart has enough other advantages so being on par with others on performance doesn't mean Dart has to die.
- themihai 10y ago
  Maybe won't die but it won't thrive either. I guess it's the new GWT. Not a bad thing but it won't disrupt the web development for sure.

kmiroslav 10y ago

> Dart is awesome. Just because currently the community is still small doesn't mean much. Well, it does mean something. Go is evidence that languages can gain momentum very fast so the fact that Dart still hasn't should be a bit of a concern (and probably partially caused by Typescript's popularity).

Scorpiion 10y ago
Dart does have some momentum as well and it's younger than Go. Go's 1.0 release was at 28 of March 2012, whereas Dart's was November 14, 2013. - https://blog.golang.org/go-version-1-is-released https://blog.golang.org/go-version-1-is-released - http://news.dartlang.org/2013/11/dart-10-stable-sdk-for-structured-web.html http://news.dartlang.org/2013/11/dart-10-stable-sdk-for-stru...

chm 10y ago

I'm working on a project in Dart. It just works, and it feels simple, and the type system means I can think more cleanly about my code. I like it, and this news is great!