4 ms·

Saying Gonzalo Curiel (born in Indiana) can't be impartial in a court case involving Trump "University" because he's mexican is one example.

oh_sigh 10y ago
1) Mexican isn't a race - it is a nationality. There are people of all races that are Mexican. 2) Curiels parents were illegal immigrants, and exactly the kind of people that Trump says he would deport. 3) Curiel has mentioned in the past (in a NYT article from the early 2000s, I can find a link if you like) that his Mexican heritage has had an impact in his practice of the law. 4) Curiel isn't a robot. Imagine if he ruled in favor of Trump...how popular would he be at the next family gathering? 5) Was it racist when Justice Sotomayor said that a "wise Latina" could make a better judicial decision than an old white man?
- whatyoucantsay 10y ago
  I'm curious which of these points downvoters are disagreeing with. I say this as someone with family members who look very much "Mexican" to most Americans. I don't like Trump's talk at all, but how would anyone with illegal immigrant parents would have comfortable family gatherings after supporting Trump? Job or not, family is strong. Is this just an example of herd HN behavior?
  - meira 10y ago
    The last one - 5. There is no such thing as reverse racism.
    - googlryas 10y ago
      So your point is that, it is impossible for a Latina to be racist, because, by definition, minorities can't be racist?
    - seany 10y ago
      You're not wrong. It's just plain old racism.
  - JabavuAdams 10y ago
    Point 1: substitute "bigot" for "racist". There's a common but foolish (or self-serving) argument that X can't be racist, because Y isn't a race. A contributing factor is that many people say/write "racist" when they mean "bigot". The point is that bigotry is no better than racism, so the reader/listener should just substitute the words and see whether the argument still makes sense rather than offering a vacuous counter-argument. EDIT> French isn't a race, but if I want to round up French people and put them in camps, I'm still a shit-bag.
- noobermin 10y ago
  I'm not sure what you said discounts the fact that what he said is racism. The post he is replying to is asking for an example and he gave one. Also, how is 5 related to this event?
  - googlryas 10y ago
    OP was giving reasons why what Trump said in that case was not racism. I'm guessing 5 is related because it shows a sitting supreme court justice saying that her "race"(if we are defining heritage/ethnicity as race) plays an important role in her judicial decisions.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > I'm guessing 5 is related because it shows a sitting supreme court justice saying that her "race"(if we are defining heritage/ethnicity as race) plays an important role in her judicial decisions Specifically on issues of race or gender discrimination, she holds out that her background -- largely through life experiences, though she is expressly less eager to completely discount the possibility of an inherent or cultural contribution than a particular other commentator -- provides an advantage in the quality of her decisions, sure. Extended quote from the 2001 speech in which the "wise Latina" remark appears (it was later repeated, on the same issue, several times in other speeches by Sotomayor.): --- In our private conversations, Judge Cedarbaum has pointed out to me that seminal decisions in race and sex discrimination cases have come from Supreme Courts composed exclusively of white males. I agree that this is significant but I also choose to emphasize that the people who argued those cases before the Supreme Court which changed the legal landscape ultimately were largely people of color and women. I recall that Justice Thurgood Marshall, Judge Connie Baker Motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal bench, and others of the NAACP argued Brown v. Board of Education. Similarly, Justice Ginsburg, with other women attorneys, was instrumental in advocating and convincing the Court that equality of work required equality in terms and conditions of employment. Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life. --- Certainly, I don't think its particularly controversial to say that, with otherwise equivalent general "wisdom" (insofar as that can be quantified and compared, something that Sotomayor correctly points out is not necessarily realistic), a person with deeper relevant life experience on the subject being addressed might do better.
- Miner49er 10y ago
  It's still making generalizations about a large group of people and assuming it's true for a particular person which is what racism is for race.
  - googlryas 10y ago
    If that's the case, perhaps we should just use the words that mean the things we want to say, instead of using words that don't mean the things we want to say to say the things we want to say? It isn't a great start when people leveling criticism at someone don't even understand(or care) about the meanings of the words they say.
    - Miner49er 10y ago
      Yeah I agree, racism is unfortunately used synonymously with discrimination by many people. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
  - sp527 10y ago
    Arguing that someone may be biased on the basis of their race is not racism. It's at worst generalizing or ad hominem. This had nothing to do with Curiel being Mexican specifically other than the nature of the circumstances (Trump might have advanced a similar argument about a Muslim judge, for instance). Progressives going after this specifically was misguided overreach. There's a reasonable basis to assume someone may be biased by their racial heritage. There's so much else Trump has done that is totally egregious that I find it mind-boggling to call him on this specifically. If anything, it gives ammunition to the anti-PC crowd.
goodcitizen147 10y ago
“I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life" – Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor

oh_sigh 10y ago

1) Mexican isn't a race - it is a nationality. There are people of all races that are Mexican. 2) Curiels parents were illegal immigrants, and exactly the kind of people that Trump says he would deport. 3) Curiel has mentioned in the past (in a NYT article from the early 2000s, I can find a link if you like) that his Mexican heritage has had an impact in his practice of the law. 4) Curiel isn't a robot. Imagine if he ruled in favor of Trump...how popular would he be at the next family gathering? 5) Was it racist when Justice Sotomayor said that a "wise Latina" could make a better judicial decision than an old white man?

whatyoucantsay 10y ago
I'm curious which of these points downvoters are disagreeing with. I say this as someone with family members who look very much "Mexican" to most Americans. I don't like Trump's talk at all, but how would anyone with illegal immigrant parents would have comfortable family gatherings after supporting Trump? Job or not, family is strong. Is this just an example of herd HN behavior?
- meira 10y ago
  The last one - 5. There is no such thing as reverse racism.
  - googlryas 10y ago
    So your point is that, it is impossible for a Latina to be racist, because, by definition, minorities can't be racist?
  - seany 10y ago
    You're not wrong. It's just plain old racism.
- JabavuAdams 10y ago
  Point 1: substitute "bigot" for "racist". There's a common but foolish (or self-serving) argument that X can't be racist, because Y isn't a race. A contributing factor is that many people say/write "racist" when they mean "bigot". The point is that bigotry is no better than racism, so the reader/listener should just substitute the words and see whether the argument still makes sense rather than offering a vacuous counter-argument. EDIT> French isn't a race, but if I want to round up French people and put them in camps, I'm still a shit-bag.
noobermin 10y ago
I'm not sure what you said discounts the fact that what he said is racism. The post he is replying to is asking for an example and he gave one. Also, how is 5 related to this event?
- googlryas 10y ago
  OP was giving reasons why what Trump said in that case was not racism. I'm guessing 5 is related because it shows a sitting supreme court justice saying that her "race"(if we are defining heritage/ethnicity as race) plays an important role in her judicial decisions.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > I'm guessing 5 is related because it shows a sitting supreme court justice saying that her "race"(if we are defining heritage/ethnicity as race) plays an important role in her judicial decisions Specifically on issues of race or gender discrimination, she holds out that her background -- largely through life experiences, though she is expressly less eager to completely discount the possibility of an inherent or cultural contribution than a particular other commentator -- provides an advantage in the quality of her decisions, sure. Extended quote from the 2001 speech in which the "wise Latina" remark appears (it was later repeated, on the same issue, several times in other speeches by Sotomayor.): --- In our private conversations, Judge Cedarbaum has pointed out to me that seminal decisions in race and sex discrimination cases have come from Supreme Courts composed exclusively of white males. I agree that this is significant but I also choose to emphasize that the people who argued those cases before the Supreme Court which changed the legal landscape ultimately were largely people of color and women. I recall that Justice Thurgood Marshall, Judge Connie Baker Motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal bench, and others of the NAACP argued Brown v. Board of Education. Similarly, Justice Ginsburg, with other women attorneys, was instrumental in advocating and convincing the Court that equality of work required equality in terms and conditions of employment. Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life. --- Certainly, I don't think its particularly controversial to say that, with otherwise equivalent general "wisdom" (insofar as that can be quantified and compared, something that Sotomayor correctly points out is not necessarily realistic), a person with deeper relevant life experience on the subject being addressed might do better.
Miner49er 10y ago
It's still making generalizations about a large group of people and assuming it's true for a particular person which is what racism is for race.
- googlryas 10y ago
  If that's the case, perhaps we should just use the words that mean the things we want to say, instead of using words that don't mean the things we want to say to say the things we want to say? It isn't a great start when people leveling criticism at someone don't even understand(or care) about the meanings of the words they say.
  - Miner49er 10y ago
    Yeah I agree, racism is unfortunately used synonymously with discrimination by many people. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
- sp527 10y ago
  Arguing that someone may be biased on the basis of their race is not racism. It's at worst generalizing or ad hominem. This had nothing to do with Curiel being Mexican specifically other than the nature of the circumstances (Trump might have advanced a similar argument about a Muslim judge, for instance). Progressives going after this specifically was misguided overreach. There's a reasonable basis to assume someone may be biased by their racial heritage. There's so much else Trump has done that is totally egregious that I find it mind-boggling to call him on this specifically. If anything, it gives ammunition to the anti-PC crowd.

goodcitizen147 10y ago

“I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life" – Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor