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> I don't think those guys were bad people, I don't think they sat there in their minds thinking, "let's tear the woman down". I really don't think they though

by mhurron 10y ago

> I don't think those guys were bad people, I don't think they sat there in their minds thinking, "let's tear the woman down". I really don't think they thought about it at all Yes, they are bad people, and the fact that they didn't have to think about going out of there way to tear someone down is part of why they are bad people. They didn't have to think about "let's tear the woman down" because they were already at the position 'she didn't belong there.' And yes, there would most likely be something similar with a man and his daughter, it just would simply be along the lines 'she's never going to get married if you teach her to act like a boy.' > I think there's a lot of unconscious, unconsidered, unthoughtful bias that they (and we) all carry around by default, Yes there is, and it makes you a bad person. You should be derided for it every time it shows itself.

dang 10y ago
Please don't pour internet vitriol on HN. Rushing to denounce others as "bad people" is not compatible with the civil, substantive discourse we're hoping for. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12129958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12129958 and marked it off-topic.
rfrey 10y ago
Shaming people - even dipshits - and fanning the politics of polarization has not historically been an effective way to change attitudes. I totally understand the feelings of righteous rage and desire for justice. I've often imagined scenarios where the target of my wrath is so shocked by somebody's contempt for them that they re-examine their attitudes and positions. But that's a fantasy. In reality, shaming obese people leads to more obese (but now psychologically damaged) people; shaming racists leads to people resurrecting the confederate flag and "all lives matter" movements; and shaming misogynists leads to idiocies like mens' rights groups. Do you want to feel good, or do you want to change things?
eropple 10y ago
> Yes there is, and it makes you a bad person You're reaching here, and it damages the rest of your post. No one person is responsible for the weight of the societal programming that we all share. (Mind, some of the strongest defenders of patriarchy are women.) Recognizing our unconscious biases and working to counteract them is part of the job of being good, but for many people, especially those whose circles don't bring them in contact with people working in social activism, there really is a "too big to see" aspect to it. Derision doesn't work (though sometimes it's more fun than it should be), and I've tried to swear off the tactic.
imron 10y ago
> Yes, they are bad people Sometimes otherwise good people say stupid things. Sometimes being called out on that makes them reflect on what they were saying and realise they were being stupid. That definitely happened to me when I was younger - people called me out on saying stupid things and after thinking about what the other person said I like to think I became a better person as a result. I wasn't a bad person when I said those stupid things - I was just someone who hadn't thought some things through. It's a little harsh to say that unconscious, unconsidered, and unthoughtful bias makes someone a bad person. It's how a person reacts after being called out on those biases that is a better indicator of that.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  I think we're quibbling over semantics here. I disagree about you being a bad person: if you said stupid, hurtful things to someone, then yes, you were a bad person, at that moment in time. But that doesn't mean you're always bad, or that you'll always be bad. But bad behavior is bad behavior, and people who behave badly are bad people. We've all been bad people at some point in our lives. We need to be educated and corrected so that we can be better people. But again, this is semantics I think. It's kinda like how all governments are bad governments, but some are a lot better than others. Or that all operating systems suck, but some suck worse than others.
  - imron 10y ago
    It was never hurtful things - more just ignorant things. > But bad behavior is bad behavior Agreed, but if you'll let me quibble over some more semantics I would argue that people who regularly and consistently behave badly are bad people and that a rare bout of bad behaviour does not necessarily make one a bad person - especially if the person learns and grows from the experience after being called out on it.

by mhurron 10y ago

dang 10y ago

Please don't pour internet vitriol on HN. Rushing to denounce others as "bad people" is not compatible with the civil, substantive discourse we're hoping for. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12129958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12129958 and marked it off-topic.

rfrey 10y ago

Shaming people - even dipshits - and fanning the politics of polarization has not historically been an effective way to change attitudes. I totally understand the feelings of righteous rage and desire for justice. I've often imagined scenarios where the target of my wrath is so shocked by somebody's contempt for them that they re-examine their attitudes and positions. But that's a fantasy. In reality, shaming obese people leads to more obese (but now psychologically damaged) people; shaming racists leads to people resurrecting the confederate flag and "all lives matter" movements; and shaming misogynists leads to idiocies like mens' rights groups. Do you want to feel good, or do you want to change things?

eropple 10y ago

> Yes there is, and it makes you a bad person You're reaching here, and it damages the rest of your post. No one person is responsible for the weight of the societal programming that we all share. (Mind, some of the strongest defenders of patriarchy are women.) Recognizing our unconscious biases and working to counteract them is part of the job of being good, but for many people, especially those whose circles don't bring them in contact with people working in social activism, there really is a "too big to see" aspect to it. Derision doesn't work (though sometimes it's more fun than it should be), and I've tried to swear off the tactic.

imron 10y ago

> Yes, they are bad people Sometimes otherwise good people say stupid things. Sometimes being called out on that makes them reflect on what they were saying and realise they were being stupid. That definitely happened to me when I was younger - people called me out on saying stupid things and after thinking about what the other person said I like to think I became a better person as a result. I wasn't a bad person when I said those stupid things - I was just someone who hadn't thought some things through. It's a little harsh to say that unconscious, unconsidered, and unthoughtful bias makes someone a bad person. It's how a person reacts after being called out on those biases that is a better indicator of that.

Grishnakh 10y ago
I think we're quibbling over semantics here. I disagree about you being a bad person: if you said stupid, hurtful things to someone, then yes, you were a bad person, at that moment in time. But that doesn't mean you're always bad, or that you'll always be bad. But bad behavior is bad behavior, and people who behave badly are bad people. We've all been bad people at some point in our lives. We need to be educated and corrected so that we can be better people. But again, this is semantics I think. It's kinda like how all governments are bad governments, but some are a lot better than others. Or that all operating systems suck, but some suck worse than others.
- imron 10y ago
  It was never hurtful things - more just ignorant things. > But bad behavior is bad behavior Agreed, but if you'll let me quibble over some more semantics I would argue that people who regularly and consistently behave badly are bad people and that a rare bout of bad behaviour does not necessarily make one a bad person - especially if the person learns and grows from the experience after being called out on it.