7 ms·

I was hoping that Shumway, Mozilla's effort to render swf files using JS (like what PDF.js is to Adobe Reader), would be released at some point. It looks like t

by jhatax 10y ago

I was hoping that Shumway, Mozilla's effort to render swf files using JS (like what PDF.js is to Adobe Reader), would be released at some point. It looks like the project has been added to the Firefox Graveyard [1]. I don't have Adobe Reader installed on my Mac any more, and don't really miss it. While Chrome's proposal to white-list the top-10 domains is a good start at curbing the loading of Flash on my laptop, I prefer the approach being considered by Safari to report that Flash (and other legacy plugins) is not available on the platform even if it is installed. [2] Safari's approach will ensure that most users see HTML5 content and won't really miss Flash. Folks who use sites like Twitch that insist on Flash will know how to force Safari to load the content they want to view. Unfortunately, Safari's user share outside of Mobile is very low. We need Chrome, Firefox and IE to adopt a similar approach (or agree on an approach for all vendors) if we are to really rid ourselves of Flash. 1. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Firefox%20Graveyard https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=... 2. https://webkit.org/blog/6589/next-steps-for-legacy-plug-ins/ https://webkit.org/blog/6589/next-steps-for-legacy-plug-ins/ Edit: Moved links to the end of the post.

cpeterso 10y ago
Chrome and Firefox also plan to hide Flash until the user chooses to activate it for the current site: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/106_KLNJfwb9L-1hVVa4i29aw1YXUy9qFX-Ye4kvJj-4/edit#slide=id.g1270f83468_0_30 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/106_KLNJfwb9L-1hVVa4i... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1186948 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1186948
- bobajeff 10y ago
  I believe Firefox's plan is to only hide Flash if it's set to click-to-play. I don't think click-to-play is default behavior for Flash unless it's not the latest version.
  - cpeterso 10y ago
    That is correct, though the planned "plugin cloaking" features for Firefox and Chrome will be a form of click-to-play.
  - the8472 10y ago
    Have you read the story? > In 2017, Firefox will require click-to-activate approval from users before a website activates the Flash plugin for any content.
    - bobajeff 10y ago
      Oh, somehow I overlooked that. That's a pretty strong action they are taking.
    - andrepd 10y ago
      Firefox has done that for the past 6 months or so, for me at least.
      - talmand 10y ago
        It's been an option for a while now, but I'm not sure if it's set to Ask To Activate by default.
Already__Taken 10y ago
I think they need to shim the flash file upload process that's a non-obvious thing to break without flash. Lots of old sites use flash uploaders to hand multiple files.
retox 10y ago
>I prefer the approach being considered by Safari to report that Flash (and other legacy plugins) is not available on the platform even if it is installed Wow, what an odd position to take (apple not you)! It seems downright harmful to the user and completely disregards the users own intentions. What next, the browser will redirect all visits to online music stores to the iTunes one?
- cpeterso 10y ago
  Many websites will fall back to a non-Flash user experience (e.g. HTML5 video) if Flash is not installed. If the website truly requires Flash, they will display a message saying so and the user can then permit the browser to activate (and "decloak") Flash for that website. This feature allows the user to choose whether to activate Flash or not.
  - retox 10y ago
    I had only read the first half of the linked article and what you say is true, the situation isn't as dire as I made out. I would still imagine as a user that if a website told you flash wasn't installed you would think there was an issue with the browser.
    - cpeterso 10y ago
      Yes, that may surprise users, but the browser will simultaneously be showing in-browser UI asking the user if they would like to activate Flash for this page. The UI should help users seem the connection between the two messages. Hopefully web developers will fix their websites' user of Flash before Safari makes this change (with macOS Sierra in Q4 2016) and Chrome and Firefox in 2017.
ronjouch 10y ago
> I prefer the approach being considered by Safari to report that Flash (and other legacy plugins) is not available on the platform even if it is installed. For those who like this behavior and want it in Firefox without having to constantly murk in about:config / about:addons, use https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flashdisable/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flashdisable/ As for "why?", it's because this behavior ensures the HTML5 is served, and if a site absolutely requires Flash, it's only a click away to activate. I prefer this to current Firefox's Click-to-play, who shows Flash in my browser plugins list, causing some sites to prioritize and serve Flash rather than HTML5.
donut2d 10y ago
Actually, Twitch already supports an HTML5 player[1]. I don't install Flash on my MacBook and just use Chrome when necessary. Twitch has been working without issue for a while now. [1]: http://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/2477288 http://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/2477288
- gergles 10y ago
  Only if you pay.
  - derefr 10y ago
    Better than relying on Flash or HTML5 for Twitch: just skip the Twitch website entirely and use https://github.com/chrippa/livestreamer https://github.com/chrippa/livestreamer with VLC. The resource (and battery!) usage for "native" streaming is so much lower than the browser version. You can freely leave it in the background while doing other things. Plus, you can force a 1080p feed. (All without paying.)
  - iotku 10y ago
    Twitch has had a HTML5 player that doesn't require having turbo to use for a while. The issue is that the source is HLS which most desktop browsers (with the exception of Edge and Safari I believe) don't support. I've used twitch with flash disabled on Edge but there's often problems. Presumably the new beta html5 player (which requires turbo subscription for now) works around HLS in some way.
    - donut2d 10y ago
      I've seen issues in MS Edge with HLS on other services as well. Safari seems to have excellent HLS support. Haven't had any issues with Safari and Twitch.
      - cpeterso 10y ago
        Apple created HLS, so it makes sense their implementation is solid. :)
Ygg2 10y ago
Any idea why Shumway was graveyarded?
- Sylos 10y ago
  Pretty much just too much work and ever-decreasing interest with the foreseeable death of Flash. This would have probably needed a dedicated team untangling and implementing the Flash-specification over many months to get it done before most webpages had already killed off their Flash-content...
- petecox 10y ago
  I tried Shumway on a couple of sites with no luck. The browser detection code bumped me immediately to the 'Download Flash' website. So if websites aren't recognising Shumway even as an option, but looking explicitly for the flash plugin, what chance does it have for market penetration? (And yes, I filed a bug on said website's issue tracker)
nothis 10y ago
So it seems streaming sites like Twitch are really the only major ones left sticking with Flash. I assume there is a reason? Despite Mozilla's claims, are they really offering a proper alternative?
- SG- 10y ago
  Twitch provides 'html5' streaming to HLS capable browsers for over a year now.
tbrock 10y ago
You installed adobe reader on your Mac? I usually don't make comments regarding other people's software choices but you are definitely doing it wrong. Mac OSX's built in pdf viewer "preview" is much better than even adobe's reader even though they invented the format. The entire rendering system of OSX is based on postscript so it flies.
- Keverw 10y ago
  I remember once at my old high school they had a digital version of the math textbook and a code since my school was too poor to buy physical books for everyone and they had to stay in class. I forget what publisher but the book would never load in Apple's preview, I think maybe due to it having a password or DRM? So they're are still probably rare reasons to install Adobe Reader on a Mac.

by jhatax 10y ago

cpeterso 10y ago

Chrome and Firefox also plan to hide Flash until the user chooses to activate it for the current site: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/106_KLNJfwb9L-1hVVa4i29aw1YXUy9qFX-Ye4kvJj-4/edit#slide=id.g1270f83468_0_30 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/106_KLNJfwb9L-1hVVa4i... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1186948 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1186948

bobajeff 10y ago
I believe Firefox's plan is to only hide Flash if it's set to click-to-play. I don't think click-to-play is default behavior for Flash unless it's not the latest version.
- cpeterso 10y ago
  That is correct, though the planned "plugin cloaking" features for Firefox and Chrome will be a form of click-to-play.
- the8472 10y ago
  Have you read the story? > In 2017, Firefox will require click-to-activate approval from users before a website activates the Flash plugin for any content.
  - bobajeff 10y ago
    Oh, somehow I overlooked that. That's a pretty strong action they are taking.
  - andrepd 10y ago
    Firefox has done that for the past 6 months or so, for me at least.
    - talmand 10y ago
      It's been an option for a while now, but I'm not sure if it's set to Ask To Activate by default.

Already__Taken 10y ago

I think they need to shim the flash file upload process that's a non-obvious thing to break without flash. Lots of old sites use flash uploaders to hand multiple files.

retox 10y ago

>I prefer the approach being considered by Safari to report that Flash (and other legacy plugins) is not available on the platform even if it is installed Wow, what an odd position to take (apple not you)! It seems downright harmful to the user and completely disregards the users own intentions. What next, the browser will redirect all visits to online music stores to the iTunes one?

cpeterso 10y ago
Many websites will fall back to a non-Flash user experience (e.g. HTML5 video) if Flash is not installed. If the website truly requires Flash, they will display a message saying so and the user can then permit the browser to activate (and "decloak") Flash for that website. This feature allows the user to choose whether to activate Flash or not.
- retox 10y ago
  I had only read the first half of the linked article and what you say is true, the situation isn't as dire as I made out. I would still imagine as a user that if a website told you flash wasn't installed you would think there was an issue with the browser.
  - cpeterso 10y ago
    Yes, that may surprise users, but the browser will simultaneously be showing in-browser UI asking the user if they would like to activate Flash for this page. The UI should help users seem the connection between the two messages. Hopefully web developers will fix their websites' user of Flash before Safari makes this change (with macOS Sierra in Q4 2016) and Chrome and Firefox in 2017.

ronjouch 10y ago

> I prefer the approach being considered by Safari to report that Flash (and other legacy plugins) is not available on the platform even if it is installed. For those who like this behavior and want it in Firefox without having to constantly murk in about:config / about:addons, use https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flashdisable/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flashdisable/ As for "why?", it's because this behavior ensures the HTML5 is served, and if a site absolutely requires Flash, it's only a click away to activate. I prefer this to current Firefox's Click-to-play, who shows Flash in my browser plugins list, causing some sites to prioritize and serve Flash rather than HTML5.

donut2d 10y ago

Actually, Twitch already supports an HTML5 player[1]. I don't install Flash on my MacBook and just use Chrome when necessary. Twitch has been working without issue for a while now. [1]: http://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/2477288 http://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/2477288

gergles 10y ago
Only if you pay.
- derefr 10y ago
  Better than relying on Flash or HTML5 for Twitch: just skip the Twitch website entirely and use https://github.com/chrippa/livestreamer https://github.com/chrippa/livestreamer with VLC. The resource (and battery!) usage for "native" streaming is so much lower than the browser version. You can freely leave it in the background while doing other things. Plus, you can force a 1080p feed. (All without paying.)
- iotku 10y ago
  Twitch has had a HTML5 player that doesn't require having turbo to use for a while. The issue is that the source is HLS which most desktop browsers (with the exception of Edge and Safari I believe) don't support. I've used twitch with flash disabled on Edge but there's often problems. Presumably the new beta html5 player (which requires turbo subscription for now) works around HLS in some way.
  - donut2d 10y ago
    I've seen issues in MS Edge with HLS on other services as well. Safari seems to have excellent HLS support. Haven't had any issues with Safari and Twitch.
    - cpeterso 10y ago
      Apple created HLS, so it makes sense their implementation is solid. :)

Ygg2 10y ago

Any idea why Shumway was graveyarded?

Sylos 10y ago
Pretty much just too much work and ever-decreasing interest with the foreseeable death of Flash. This would have probably needed a dedicated team untangling and implementing the Flash-specification over many months to get it done before most webpages had already killed off their Flash-content...
petecox 10y ago
I tried Shumway on a couple of sites with no luck. The browser detection code bumped me immediately to the 'Download Flash' website. So if websites aren't recognising Shumway even as an option, but looking explicitly for the flash plugin, what chance does it have for market penetration? (And yes, I filed a bug on said website's issue tracker)

nothis 10y ago

So it seems streaming sites like Twitch are really the only major ones left sticking with Flash. I assume there is a reason? Despite Mozilla's claims, are they really offering a proper alternative?

SG- 10y ago
Twitch provides 'html5' streaming to HLS capable browsers for over a year now.

tbrock 10y ago

You installed adobe reader on your Mac? I usually don't make comments regarding other people's software choices but you are definitely doing it wrong. Mac OSX's built in pdf viewer "preview" is much better than even adobe's reader even though they invented the format. The entire rendering system of OSX is based on postscript so it flies.

Keverw 10y ago
I remember once at my old high school they had a digital version of the math textbook and a code since my school was too poor to buy physical books for everyone and they had to stay in class. I forget what publisher but the book would never load in Apple's preview, I think maybe due to it having a password or DRM? So they're are still probably rare reasons to install Adobe Reader on a Mac.