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If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do not have the ability to identify as a professional first and a group member second. That is the effec

If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do not have the ability to identify as a professional first and a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group member. Think about dealing with sexist/sexually-charged comments, racial tension at the office. Even if you want to just be a professional, other people will get in your way (and not always intentionally). Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people.

btilly 10y ago
Argue for your limitations, and surely they're yours. To the extent that you can focus on what is under your personal control, you are likely to be happier and more productive. To the extent that you focus on things that are not under your control and can't be changed, you will be unhappy, unproductive, and will have a built-in excuse for your failures. This is not an either-or choice, it is a spectrum. And the farther you manage to go towards taking responsibility for your life, generally the better you will do. This does not diminish the real challenges that various historically disadvantaged groups have. It is what I believe the best advice is for them based on everything that I have learned..including from people I respect who are members of various disadvantaged groups.
- andkon 10y ago
  Nah man, of course it diminishes their challenges. You literally start your post by diminishing their challenges; you do this in response to a post that makes the highly uncontroversial point that minorities are perceived differently in the workplace. The interesting thing is that your line of advice really just needs a single, model minority person to prove it right. "Look! She didn't accede to the haters! Please ignore all the other people like her who gave up along the way! She obviously focused on what was under her personal control, and that's all that mattered." But it isn't all that matters. If that were true, diversity in tech would not be an issue. Instead, only the most resilient people, those most willing to overlook the ongoing and systemic discrimination, make it.
  - btilly 10y ago
    You appear to be arguing against your impression of what I said, instead of what I actually said. What I gave was practical advice for how to have the best life possible given the circumstances. I said nothing about how easy it is to do it, or the circumstances. Furthermore the REASON why I pointed out that it is a spectrum is that it isn't all or nothing. If you're truly stuck feeling like a victim a lot of the time and can't change it, you're still better off than you would be otherwise. Better off does not mean well off - discrimination is real. It just means better.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  I'd argue that there are other reasons for seeking a group of one's similarly disadvantaged peers than 'focusing on things that are not under your control'. Simply being in the presence of individuals with similar experiences offers solidarity, which is not equivalent to focusing on the negatives of those experiences. Nor would I agree that 'seeking reassurances' (quote from grandparent) necessarily leads to lowered expectations.
  - btilly 10y ago
    There are plenty of reasons why one might choose to investigate such groups. And would hope that such groups might have positive things to offer. However experience suggests that you are likely to wind up around people who are quick to explain all failures as discrimination. Because they do this for themselves, they are unlikely to be successful. If you adopt this attitude, your odds of success are also hurt.
- junko 10y ago
  I sortof agree with your "toughen up!" stance; as a member of a minority group this is actually practical - but only when I've developed sufficiently thick skin. I've worked in organisations where I was blatantly ignored/sidelined (I'll spare the details of how I came to conclude that it was due to discrimination rather than other factors) and that was pretty demoralising. I share your opinion, but count my blessing that I am able to carry it out.
  - orbitur 10y ago
    Fellow minority and I agree with a toughen up stance as well, as I think we do have to toughen up to actually get ahead. But that isn't a reason to deny people help, deny people the chance to say "hey, look I'm feeling really alone right now". I wouldn't be as "tough" as I am now if it weren't for a few people who gave me a hand when I truly needed it. I wouldn't be where I am without reading a ton of blogposts by other marginalized people who feel the same way as I did. There are, no doubt, people who like to wallow in their insecurities, but they aren't any worse than the people who say the marginalized should just suck it up and work harder, or that people who feel marginalized should shut up.
  - btilly 10y ago
    Exactly. The phrase, "To the extent that you can..." was meant to convey the fact that the perfect ideal is not feasible. I also tried to make it clear that the attempt is worthwhile because even if your best is only an occasional success, you'll still wind up better off than you would otherwise. On the question of toxic organizations, I'd like to point out that recognizing that the organization is toxic and choosing to be elsewhere was under your control. I commend you for making that choice. There will always be toxic people and toxic organizations. Some, like the police, we have little choice about dealing with. But there is no need to put up with ones that we can avoid. And by avoiding them, we make our lives better.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  > things that are not under your control and can't be changed Maybe those things can't be changed in the short run, but maybe speaking up about them helps move society in the direction of changing them in the long run.
- peeb 10y ago
  While I understand where you come from, this is the kind of advice I would give a friend or family if they came to me and said “hey, I am having a hard time in the industry and I think it’s because I am a minority”. Do your best, try to grow a thick skin, etc. However, I believe you can’t possibly extend that (positive and helpful) feeling to an outside “political” statement. If our aim is to make the industry welcoming and accepting to everyone, I believe we should do more than what you describe and try to figure out a way to make it right. It might not help minorities in tech right now, but it will eventually.
  - btilly 10y ago
    Yes you can. If you have a minority that has every disadvantage but believes that they CAN succeed by their own effort, that minority will succeed and it will reduce bigotry against them. Indeed the history of the USA supports this - we have had wave after wave of disadvantaged immigrants. They have nothing, have trouble with the language, and are widely discriminated against. But a generation or two later you have seen Italians, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian Jews, Afghans, and many other minorities integrate into the mainstream and do well. But get a victim culture established in a minority, and things won't improve for them. They are unlikely to actually face more discrimination than, say, Cambodians did when they arrived here penniless and not speaking the language about 40 years ago. But they will have a worse future. Look at it a different way. If you're from a disadvantaged minority, you've likely got a strike against you for having a bad background, and another for current discrimination. Add a victim mentality, and you're out. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is that you're an actual victim, it is the mentality that you can't afford.
pc86 10y ago
And imagine how much harder it must be to advocate that you're a professional first and a group member second when you're the Vice President of "Women Coders of San Diego" or whatever other group advocacy organization would be relevant.
smokeyj 10y ago
> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group Short, fat, scrawny, aging, young, poor, immigrant, religious, atheist, nose-picker. Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.
- retox 10y ago
  Agreed, identity politics and self segregation are unhealthy and unhelpful, both inside tech and in the larger context.
- iamdave 10y ago
  >Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have. Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon them just by virtue of their position. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 This comment comes to mind and I think illustrates an example of what I mean by this.
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    The comment you pointed to seems very reasonable to me, I am assuming from the rest of your comment that you don't think it is. We all have such realities, and typically few if any other people realise what's going on. Just be kind. To everyone (note to self: be better at this). It's not specific to any particular group (though: apparently short men have it quite a bit worse than other "protected" groups: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimination_short_guys_finish_last/ http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimi... )
    - iamdave 10y ago
      I'm by no means asserting it isn't reasonable, In fact I'm using it to bolster my point in suggesting an opposite side to the same coin of "card carrying member of x" in a manner that demands attention to perhaps what informs and enforces the perception of "identifying as a card carrying member of %group%" with a dash more nuance than what exists on the surface. For some people, their identity and association as a member of %group% is something they outwardly display to be observed and consumed by others, and they have their reasons for it. For others, it's something they keep to themselves and prefer to carry on and be judged on the merits of their contributions to work and family, and they have their reasons for that. These things don't invalidate one another. For others still, their association with %group% isn't something they choose, and is prominent and obvious by merely walking into a room and for good or ill, a person often finds themselves navigating all sorts of assumptions, guesses and biases about that association whether or not they can control it. That was the thrust of my comment.
throwanem 10y ago
Does it still count as mansplaining when the subject is why all women should agree with, and behave like, people who use the word "mansplaining"?
runeks 10y ago
> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do > not have the ability to identify as a professional first and > a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. > Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group > member. The only power other people have over you is the ability to alter your thoughts. Thoughts, however, can be ignored. Some thoughts are just harder to ignore than others, but practice makes perfect. So while it is possible for other people to instill a thought in your mind of who you supposedly are, when you are aware of this thought, you have the choice of whether or not you want to believe it. Caveat: the pleasant feelings associated with identifying with a positive thought also disappear.
- beevai142 10y ago
  Other people have power to not hire you, fire you, not offer you opportunities to advance, not invite you to the "old boys club" to network etc. Add to that your caveat, and good luck with that.
  - runeks 10y ago
    Every human being has the ability to not hire someone else, thankfully. How difficult life would be if we had to hire everyone we met. With regards to having the right to fire people you've previously hired, I think that's justified. In places like Italy, where they make it hard to fire someone once hired, youth unemployment is abnormally high, because it's quite natural to shy away from entering into a contract you can't get out of.
- rhizome 10y ago
  This doesn't account for the fundamental attribution error. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
  - runeks 10y ago
    The "fundamental attribution error" is a symptom of the very issue it itself is trying to solve: too much thinking. Thinking about why we think too much won't get us closer to a solution. The fundamental problem is believing every thought that pops into your mind. We do that when we're not conscious of thought. Whether a compulsive thought concerns "internal characteristics of a person" or "external factors of a situation" is not relevant.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>If you are a member of a disadvantaged group >Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people Who here isn't a member of some disadvantaged group? Being "white" and "male" doesn't mean you're home free. So I don't need to "imagine" being one of "those people"; I am one.

btilly 10y ago

Argue for your limitations, and surely they're yours. To the extent that you can focus on what is under your personal control, you are likely to be happier and more productive. To the extent that you focus on things that are not under your control and can't be changed, you will be unhappy, unproductive, and will have a built-in excuse for your failures. This is not an either-or choice, it is a spectrum. And the farther you manage to go towards taking responsibility for your life, generally the better you will do. This does not diminish the real challenges that various historically disadvantaged groups have. It is what I believe the best advice is for them based on everything that I have learned..including from people I respect who are members of various disadvantaged groups.

andkon 10y ago
Nah man, of course it diminishes their challenges. You literally start your post by diminishing their challenges; you do this in response to a post that makes the highly uncontroversial point that minorities are perceived differently in the workplace. The interesting thing is that your line of advice really just needs a single, model minority person to prove it right. "Look! She didn't accede to the haters! Please ignore all the other people like her who gave up along the way! She obviously focused on what was under her personal control, and that's all that mattered." But it isn't all that matters. If that were true, diversity in tech would not be an issue. Instead, only the most resilient people, those most willing to overlook the ongoing and systemic discrimination, make it.
- btilly 10y ago
  You appear to be arguing against your impression of what I said, instead of what I actually said. What I gave was practical advice for how to have the best life possible given the circumstances. I said nothing about how easy it is to do it, or the circumstances. Furthermore the REASON why I pointed out that it is a spectrum is that it isn't all or nothing. If you're truly stuck feeling like a victim a lot of the time and can't change it, you're still better off than you would be otherwise. Better off does not mean well off - discrimination is real. It just means better.
MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
I'd argue that there are other reasons for seeking a group of one's similarly disadvantaged peers than 'focusing on things that are not under your control'. Simply being in the presence of individuals with similar experiences offers solidarity, which is not equivalent to focusing on the negatives of those experiences. Nor would I agree that 'seeking reassurances' (quote from grandparent) necessarily leads to lowered expectations.
- btilly 10y ago
  There are plenty of reasons why one might choose to investigate such groups. And would hope that such groups might have positive things to offer. However experience suggests that you are likely to wind up around people who are quick to explain all failures as discrimination. Because they do this for themselves, they are unlikely to be successful. If you adopt this attitude, your odds of success are also hurt.
junko 10y ago
I sortof agree with your "toughen up!" stance; as a member of a minority group this is actually practical - but only when I've developed sufficiently thick skin. I've worked in organisations where I was blatantly ignored/sidelined (I'll spare the details of how I came to conclude that it was due to discrimination rather than other factors) and that was pretty demoralising. I share your opinion, but count my blessing that I am able to carry it out.
- orbitur 10y ago
  Fellow minority and I agree with a toughen up stance as well, as I think we do have to toughen up to actually get ahead. But that isn't a reason to deny people help, deny people the chance to say "hey, look I'm feeling really alone right now". I wouldn't be as "tough" as I am now if it weren't for a few people who gave me a hand when I truly needed it. I wouldn't be where I am without reading a ton of blogposts by other marginalized people who feel the same way as I did. There are, no doubt, people who like to wallow in their insecurities, but they aren't any worse than the people who say the marginalized should just suck it up and work harder, or that people who feel marginalized should shut up.
- btilly 10y ago
  Exactly. The phrase, "To the extent that you can..." was meant to convey the fact that the perfect ideal is not feasible. I also tried to make it clear that the attempt is worthwhile because even if your best is only an occasional success, you'll still wind up better off than you would otherwise. On the question of toxic organizations, I'd like to point out that recognizing that the organization is toxic and choosing to be elsewhere was under your control. I commend you for making that choice. There will always be toxic people and toxic organizations. Some, like the police, we have little choice about dealing with. But there is no need to put up with ones that we can avoid. And by avoiding them, we make our lives better.
ScottBurson 10y ago
> things that are not under your control and can't be changed Maybe those things can't be changed in the short run, but maybe speaking up about them helps move society in the direction of changing them in the long run.
peeb 10y ago
While I understand where you come from, this is the kind of advice I would give a friend or family if they came to me and said “hey, I am having a hard time in the industry and I think it’s because I am a minority”. Do your best, try to grow a thick skin, etc. However, I believe you can’t possibly extend that (positive and helpful) feeling to an outside “political” statement. If our aim is to make the industry welcoming and accepting to everyone, I believe we should do more than what you describe and try to figure out a way to make it right. It might not help minorities in tech right now, but it will eventually.
- btilly 10y ago
  Yes you can. If you have a minority that has every disadvantage but believes that they CAN succeed by their own effort, that minority will succeed and it will reduce bigotry against them. Indeed the history of the USA supports this - we have had wave after wave of disadvantaged immigrants. They have nothing, have trouble with the language, and are widely discriminated against. But a generation or two later you have seen Italians, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian Jews, Afghans, and many other minorities integrate into the mainstream and do well. But get a victim culture established in a minority, and things won't improve for them. They are unlikely to actually face more discrimination than, say, Cambodians did when they arrived here penniless and not speaking the language about 40 years ago. But they will have a worse future. Look at it a different way. If you're from a disadvantaged minority, you've likely got a strike against you for having a bad background, and another for current discrimination. Add a victim mentality, and you're out. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is that you're an actual victim, it is the mentality that you can't afford.

pc86 10y ago

And imagine how much harder it must be to advocate that you're a professional first and a group member second when you're the Vice President of "Women Coders of San Diego" or whatever other group advocacy organization would be relevant.

smokeyj 10y ago

> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group Short, fat, scrawny, aging, young, poor, immigrant, religious, atheist, nose-picker. Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.

retox 10y ago
Agreed, identity politics and self segregation are unhealthy and unhelpful, both inside tech and in the larger context.
iamdave 10y ago
>Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have. Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon them just by virtue of their position. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 This comment comes to mind and I think illustrates an example of what I mean by this.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  The comment you pointed to seems very reasonable to me, I am assuming from the rest of your comment that you don't think it is. We all have such realities, and typically few if any other people realise what's going on. Just be kind. To everyone (note to self: be better at this). It's not specific to any particular group (though: apparently short men have it quite a bit worse than other "protected" groups: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimination_short_guys_finish_last/ http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimi... )
  - iamdave 10y ago
    I'm by no means asserting it isn't reasonable, In fact I'm using it to bolster my point in suggesting an opposite side to the same coin of "card carrying member of x" in a manner that demands attention to perhaps what informs and enforces the perception of "identifying as a card carrying member of %group%" with a dash more nuance than what exists on the surface. For some people, their identity and association as a member of %group% is something they outwardly display to be observed and consumed by others, and they have their reasons for it. For others, it's something they keep to themselves and prefer to carry on and be judged on the merits of their contributions to work and family, and they have their reasons for that. These things don't invalidate one another. For others still, their association with %group% isn't something they choose, and is prominent and obvious by merely walking into a room and for good or ill, a person often finds themselves navigating all sorts of assumptions, guesses and biases about that association whether or not they can control it. That was the thrust of my comment.

throwanem 10y ago

Does it still count as mansplaining when the subject is why all women should agree with, and behave like, people who use the word "mansplaining"?

runeks 10y ago

> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do > not have the ability to identify as a professional first and > a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. > Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group > member. The only power other people have over you is the ability to alter your thoughts. Thoughts, however, can be ignored. Some thoughts are just harder to ignore than others, but practice makes perfect. So while it is possible for other people to instill a thought in your mind of who you supposedly are, when you are aware of this thought, you have the choice of whether or not you want to believe it. Caveat: the pleasant feelings associated with identifying with a positive thought also disappear.

beevai142 10y ago
Other people have power to not hire you, fire you, not offer you opportunities to advance, not invite you to the "old boys club" to network etc. Add to that your caveat, and good luck with that.
- runeks 10y ago
  Every human being has the ability to not hire someone else, thankfully. How difficult life would be if we had to hire everyone we met. With regards to having the right to fire people you've previously hired, I think that's justified. In places like Italy, where they make it hard to fire someone once hired, youth unemployment is abnormally high, because it's quite natural to shy away from entering into a contract you can't get out of.
rhizome 10y ago
This doesn't account for the fundamental attribution error. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
- runeks 10y ago
  The "fundamental attribution error" is a symptom of the very issue it itself is trying to solve: too much thinking. Thinking about why we think too much won't get us closer to a solution. The fundamental problem is believing every thought that pops into your mind. We do that when we're not conscious of thought. Whether a compulsive thought concerns "internal characteristics of a person" or "external factors of a situation" is not relevant.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>If you are a member of a disadvantaged group >Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people Who here isn't a member of some disadvantaged group? Being "white" and "male" doesn't mean you're home free. So I don't need to "imagine" being one of "those people"; I am one.