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With a bit of reading comprehension, you'd notice that I don't disagree – Erdogan is one of the reasons I'm glad there's a "biological term limit" that should h

With a bit of reading comprehension, you'd notice that I don't disagree – Erdogan is one of the reasons I'm glad there's a "biological term limit" that should hit him in the next 10 years. The people are equally to blame (though it becomes harder when the disappearance of democratic institutions makes ignorance more understandable). Also I guess that Mr. Trump is a good example of what can happen even in the most stable democracies. But that doesn't negate the fact that the fate of nations can be influenced from the outside. Actions – those in foreign policy – have consequences. Otherwise: why bother? This also doesn't fit in your narrative of me being critical of some sort of post-colonialistic lack of altruism. I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east and just let it go to waste. It's also another failure in the rising culture war between democracy and authoritarian capitalists (Putin, Erdogan, Trump, China, Hungary). This time around, the enemy isn't quite as stupid as during the cold war...

tremon 10y ago
I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east But I think that is showing some misunderstanding about the role and purpose of the EU: it simply is not and was never intended to be an imperialist engine. It is a trading bloc that primarily operates to harmonize markets, not governments. The entire reason why Turkey had to jump through so many hoops to join the EU is because the EU isn't there to regulate governments: it requires a stable and open government to guarantee market access. Europe already has huge issues dealing with Poland and Hungary voting in parties with strong isolationist tendencies, do you really think the EU could have done anything to stop Erdogan's current direction?
- tim333 10y ago
  Some people want the EU to basically harmonize markets but there are a lot that want it to do more than that. One of the main arguments in Brexit was the extent to which the EU could control non market stuff like immigration and human rights law and Turkey only dropped the death penalty to fit in with EU standards.
  - tremon 10y ago
    non market stuff like immigration Free movement of labour is a market requisite in the EEA. Britain stands to find out the same: want to remain in the single market, accept free movement. human rights law The ECHR is not part of the treaties of the EU. Yes, it is a prerequisite of EU membership, but it is a different treaty. Plenty of non-EU nations are signatories, even Russia.

tremon 10y ago

I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east But I think that is showing some misunderstanding about the role and purpose of the EU: it simply is not and was never intended to be an imperialist engine. It is a trading bloc that primarily operates to harmonize markets, not governments. The entire reason why Turkey had to jump through so many hoops to join the EU is because the EU isn't there to regulate governments: it requires a stable and open government to guarantee market access. Europe already has huge issues dealing with Poland and Hungary voting in parties with strong isolationist tendencies, do you really think the EU could have done anything to stop Erdogan's current direction?

tim333 10y ago
Some people want the EU to basically harmonize markets but there are a lot that want it to do more than that. One of the main arguments in Brexit was the extent to which the EU could control non market stuff like immigration and human rights law and Turkey only dropped the death penalty to fit in with EU standards.
- tremon 10y ago
  non market stuff like immigration Free movement of labour is a market requisite in the EEA. Britain stands to find out the same: want to remain in the single market, accept free movement. human rights law The ECHR is not part of the treaties of the EU. Yes, it is a prerequisite of EU membership, but it is a different treaty. Plenty of non-EU nations are signatories, even Russia.