5 ms·

No, the problem is you've replaced code-is-contract with an insider-run Politburo who decides to put referenda up to a vote with their preferred choice set as d

by themgt 10y ago

No, the problem is you've replaced code-is-contract with an insider-run Politburo who decides to put referenda up to a vote with their preferred choice set as default and propagandized to the community from the top-down. I have long thought anarchist digital currency is bound to fail because of the need for a political superstructure able to make some decisions. The problem is now you've thrown out 3000 years of political thought and replaced it with ... whatever the hell the process behind these decisions is now. What you would actually need to do this right is put real thought and effort into how to have an effective, impartial and ethical governing body managing a digital currency. Giving the primary stakeholders carte blanche to make these decisions is basically recreating a virtual version of "company scrip".

tankenmate 10y ago
I think you might be misunderstanding authority. Authority doesn't come from lording it over people, or making the best decisions. Authority comes from submission; as long as someone submits to you you have authority over them, likewise anything you submit to has authority over you. The submissive person in the relationship has all the power; they are the one who gets to say "stop". In this case the various arguments were put forward by various people; this included rants, well researched documents, but most importantly code. In the end most people submitted to the code that was put out there by the main group. But still this submission is a choice. The main group survives by this submission, but it isn't their choice; this is government by consent. You may not consent to it, but plenty others have. So if you don't like it I suggest you follow Alan Kay's advice; "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." If you want to influence the situation go write better code; of course you need good ideas for that code, but you still need to ship code! Otherwise the cost of submission is too high for most people and they won't follow you.
- drdeca 10y ago
  > Authority comes from submission; I don't think I quite agree with this, but I agree with something similar I suppose : Power comes from submission. (sorta) I believe that one can be under an authority which one does not choose to submit to. (relating more to how people should act than how they do act, compared to power) But, perhaps this is just using words differently without necessarily much disagreement about the actual things. By your comment I am reminded of a dialogue "How to quit smoking" on self-control, which argues that self-control is more due to obedience than it is to "willpower". This dialogue seems to make sense to me. (http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13) Regarding your last paragraph: I don't know that I know how that last bit is applicable. In order to not have the fork happen, the difference would be people not running the fork code, or alternatively running some slightly different code that handles the fact that some people are running the fork but is otherwise basically unchanged. This code already exists. As such, I'm not sure what you are really saying by this paragraph, other than, basically "suck it up"?
  - hammock 10y ago
    "Respect my authoritah" vs. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > The submissive person in the relationship has all the power; they are the one who gets to say "stop". Maybe when you're into BDSM. You're right that authority comes from submission, but people submit to power. A gun, a hostage, a 51% voting majority.
  - clarkmoody 10y ago
    > A gun, a hostage Those are direct use of force, not authority or power. > 51% voting majority Can still be undermined by civil disobedience, if we're talking about society. Only a small minority in society (the police) use force to get you to submit. The rest submits to the authority of the law. A very small group can undermine the majority through civil disobedience, since they can outnumber the police very quickly.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      Force compels submission, which grants authority.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    People often also submit to simple suggestions and someone just taking charge - because in many (most?) social situations that's the effective and beneficial thing to do instead of requiring preexisting power. Power can be 'taken' and enforced, but very commonly power is simply given/gifted when a community, small or large, self-organizes.

by themgt 10y ago

tankenmate 10y ago

I think you might be misunderstanding authority. Authority doesn't come from lording it over people, or making the best decisions. Authority comes from submission; as long as someone submits to you you have authority over them, likewise anything you submit to has authority over you. The submissive person in the relationship has all the power; they are the one who gets to say "stop". In this case the various arguments were put forward by various people; this included rants, well researched documents, but most importantly code. In the end most people submitted to the code that was put out there by the main group. But still this submission is a choice. The main group survives by this submission, but it isn't their choice; this is government by consent. You may not consent to it, but plenty others have. So if you don't like it I suggest you follow Alan Kay's advice; "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." If you want to influence the situation go write better code; of course you need good ideas for that code, but you still need to ship code! Otherwise the cost of submission is too high for most people and they won't follow you.

drdeca 10y ago
> Authority comes from submission; I don't think I quite agree with this, but I agree with something similar I suppose : Power comes from submission. (sorta) I believe that one can be under an authority which one does not choose to submit to. (relating more to how people should act than how they do act, compared to power) But, perhaps this is just using words differently without necessarily much disagreement about the actual things. By your comment I am reminded of a dialogue "How to quit smoking" on self-control, which argues that self-control is more due to obedience than it is to "willpower". This dialogue seems to make sense to me. (http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13) Regarding your last paragraph: I don't know that I know how that last bit is applicable. In order to not have the fork happen, the difference would be people not running the fork code, or alternatively running some slightly different code that handles the fact that some people are running the fork but is otherwise basically unchanged. This code already exists. As such, I'm not sure what you are really saying by this paragraph, other than, basically "suck it up"?
- hammock 10y ago
  "Respect my authoritah" vs. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> The submissive person in the relationship has all the power; they are the one who gets to say "stop". Maybe when you're into BDSM. You're right that authority comes from submission, but people submit to power. A gun, a hostage, a 51% voting majority.
- clarkmoody 10y ago
  > A gun, a hostage Those are direct use of force, not authority or power. > 51% voting majority Can still be undermined by civil disobedience, if we're talking about society. Only a small minority in society (the police) use force to get you to submit. The rest submits to the authority of the law. A very small group can undermine the majority through civil disobedience, since they can outnumber the police very quickly.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    Force compels submission, which grants authority.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  People often also submit to simple suggestions and someone just taking charge - because in many (most?) social situations that's the effective and beneficial thing to do instead of requiring preexisting power. Power can be 'taken' and enforced, but very commonly power is simply given/gifted when a community, small or large, self-organizes.