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This is a superb point. Americans are so quick to rally against any foreign leader that is sympathetic to Islam. In the US we've had decades of anti-Islamic p
by grandalf 10y ago
This is a superb point. Americans are so quick to rally against any foreign leader that is sympathetic to Islam.
In the US we've had decades of anti-Islamic propaganda, since it has helped sell various war efforts.
All countries have some internal forces of pluralism and some internal voices of absolutism, for a variety of contemporary and historical reasons, and all citizens have the ability to consent and to dissent, and to thus influence their own destiny.
In the US, we are such sheep that we enjoy indignantly criticizing the character of foreign leaders we know nothing about... while ignoring the atrocities committed by our own nation and the humanitarian disasters that we create abroad (and tolerate at home).
Propaganda isn't simply about promoting specific beliefs, it's about creating a distorted sense of what is important. So many Americans view "stopping Islamic fundamentalism" as significant and more important than so many other things. This view is the result of Billions of dollars spent on propaganda over decades.
Dehumanization propaganda (which the US is expert at) creates a political environment where many (most?) American citizens are dismissive of the basic rationality (and basic human rights) of anyone characterized as Islamic.
I believe that power systems gradually progress from "power by force" into something that looks more like pluralistic democracy. Not because the power holders decide to give up some of the power, but because they are successfully able to whitewash their nature by using propaganda messages. Over time, the government that waged genocide against native Americans and killed millions of Japanese civilians becomes the government that wants to wage a Trillion dollar war to free Iraqi women from oppression.
This is not the steady march of humanitarian progress. It's the enveloping propaganda narrative. We are just as barbaric now as ever, and our most recent genocide has been against the Iraqi people and the victims of the drone attacks throughout the region.
The anti-Islamic narrative used by the US Government to sell wars in the middle east has resulted in massive transfers of wealth... Generally, the plunder of a natural-resource-rich region by the US.
There is absolutely no desire on the part of the US to create democracy or pluralism in the middle east. Islamic solidarity groups, the only sort of grassroots political movement likely to stop the region's US-supported dictators, are of course vilified by the US because they also oppose US-led destabilization of the region.
- tptacek 10y agoYou don't even have to support an Islamist Turkey to have problems with military coups. I think Erdogan is highly problematic and that the direction Turkey is taking will materially harm a generation of its people. But even that is a better outcome than a military coup! I don't like Islamist governments (any more than I'd like a Christian Fundamentalist government here --- "Christian", by the way, being a word that could fairly be applied to me), but I too get the strong sense that the only factor being weighed by supporters of the coup on this thread, whether they're well-informed enough to invoke Ataturk or not, is "Islamism bad, anything else good". No.
- grandalf 10y agoExactly. In the US, the word "Islamism" comes with a payload that is a gift-wrapped propaganda message: - Islamism will trend toward and harbor fundamentalist "strains". - Islamism cannot be pluralistic or largely secular due to structural reasons or ideological invariants. - An Islamist political system is permanently at odds with the sort of Enlightenment values that guide the West. I've read a lot of very serious arguments that claim that Western pluralism and democracy were largely germinated by doctrinal aspects of Christianity. Quotes like the "Render unto Caesar" passage are hailed as the cornerstone of the separation of church and state, and Islam, lacking the equivalent, is deemed to devalue such separation... Even things like the Schism of 1054 are hailed as helping to usher in the values of representative democracy.
- pluma 10y agoI'm not an American. My opinion would be no different if it were any other religion. Islam just happens to be the religion shared by a part of the world that is currently in a huge mess. I don't even see what Turkey has to do with US politics. To be frank, prior to Erdogan I didn't even consider Turkey an "Islamic nation". It was just a Western nation with a Muslim majority -- which was the entire point of Atatürk's republic.