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I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion. - Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in

by shabaan 10y ago

I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion. - Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in the whole of europe under Erdogan. - Erdogan has resettled 2.2 million syrian refugees in new cities (much more than whole of europe combined) with monthly food and money .. although 2.3 million are yet to settle. - He was elected with 60% votes and current stats (before coupe) say he enjoys support of 70% of people. This is sufficient for him deserving to be the democratically elected president of Turkey, even if with some wrongs (from turkish people perspective) here and there. But for some people in west and unilaterally in your media: - He is evil - He is religious - He is undemocratic - He talks about death penalty (although quitely we would rather support coup dictat sisi in egypt who gave 6000 people death penalty for "protests") - He has degraded morals (even though we in west have shown our real colors with regards to the refugee sit

pluma 10y ago
I'm not sure why you think my view is bigoted. I'm not saying he is evil, I don't agree with death penalties anywhere in Turkey our not, I don't think he "degraded morals" (what does that even mean?) and I don't think he has harmed the Turkish economy. I'm saying he is objectively harming the ideals the Turkish Republic was founded on by Atatürk. I'm not saying this because I think those ideals would allow holding Turkey back for the West to exploit. I'm saying that because I genuinely think Atatürk was a great leader whose principles should be an example for all nations, not just Turkey. I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have (though I'm well aware of how much worse we could have it). I am genuinely upset by those ideals being betrayed by Erdogan and the Turkish people having chosen a path that stands against everything Turkey was founded on. I am German, a lot of my classmates in school were Turkish immigrants. I even took a Turkish language course in elementary school (although I can barely remember anything beyond "bir iki üç"). I would have loved to see Turkey succeed as a modern state and become an example other nations in the Islamic world can look up to. At this point I'm not even sure Turkey would be salvageable if Erdogan was gone. When I said this is a political tragedy, I mean it.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have Curious, what mess does Germany find itself in with respect to Ataturk's principles?
  - aws_ls 10y ago
    I think @pluma means that the mass nationalistic hysteria which was generated after WW1 leading to WW2, would not have happened, if like Turkey military, German military would have preempted all the events by a coup. Also they suggest that the present mass nationalism in Turkey has vague equivalence in what happened in Germany after WW1 leading upto WW2. PS: I am finding this page discussions very educating. Thanks for several comments by @pluma, and also some very good arguments against.
grandalf 10y ago
This is a superb point. Americans are so quick to rally against any foreign leader that is sympathetic to Islam. In the US we've had decades of anti-Islamic propaganda, since it has helped sell various war efforts. All countries have some internal forces of pluralism and some internal voices of absolutism, for a variety of contemporary and historical reasons, and all citizens have the ability to consent and to dissent, and to thus influence their own destiny. In the US, we are such sheep that we enjoy indignantly criticizing the character of foreign leaders we know nothing about... while ignoring the atrocities committed by our own nation and the humanitarian disasters that we create abroad (and tolerate at home). Propaganda isn't simply about promoting specific beliefs, it's about creating a distorted sense of what is important. So many Americans view "stopping Islamic fundamentalism" as significant and more important than so many other things. This view is the result of Billions of dollars spent on propaganda over decades. Dehumanization propaganda (which the US is expert at) creates a political environment where many (most?) American citizens are dismissive of the basic rationality (and basic human rights) of anyone characterized as Islamic. I believe that power systems gradually progress from "power by force" into something that looks more like pluralistic democracy. Not because the power holders decide to give up some of the power, but because they are successfully able to whitewash their nature by using propaganda messages. Over time, the government that waged genocide against native Americans and killed millions of Japanese civilians becomes the government that wants to wage a Trillion dollar war to free Iraqi women from oppression. This is not the steady march of humanitarian progress. It's the enveloping propaganda narrative. We are just as barbaric now as ever, and our most recent genocide has been against the Iraqi people and the victims of the drone attacks throughout the region. The anti-Islamic narrative used by the US Government to sell wars in the middle east has resulted in massive transfers of wealth... Generally, the plunder of a natural-resource-rich region by the US. There is absolutely no desire on the part of the US to create democracy or pluralism in the middle east. Islamic solidarity groups, the only sort of grassroots political movement likely to stop the region's US-supported dictators, are of course vilified by the US because they also oppose US-led destabilization of the region.
- tptacek 10y ago
  You don't even have to support an Islamist Turkey to have problems with military coups. I think Erdogan is highly problematic and that the direction Turkey is taking will materially harm a generation of its people. But even that is a better outcome than a military coup! I don't like Islamist governments (any more than I'd like a Christian Fundamentalist government here --- "Christian", by the way, being a word that could fairly be applied to me), but I too get the strong sense that the only factor being weighed by supporters of the coup on this thread, whether they're well-informed enough to invoke Ataturk or not, is "Islamism bad, anything else good". No.
tremon 10y ago
He is evil I'm sure that some people say that. So what? Some other politicians that have been called the same: G.W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Nigel Farage, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande. He is religious Are you suggesting that he isn't? He is undemocratic And there's ample evidence that he is. Democracy requires freedom of the press and free speech. When his government raids newspaper headquarters and installs puppet editors, he very much is undemocratic. He talks about death penalty It's not that he talks about it, it's about why and when he talks about it. Namely, to get rid of political rivals. we would rather support coup dictat sisi in egypt who gave 6000 people death penalty for "protests" Who is "we" here? Most European governments did as much about that as they do about Erdogan's latest purge: they wagged their finger.

by shabaan 10y ago

pluma 10y ago

I'm not sure why you think my view is bigoted. I'm not saying he is evil, I don't agree with death penalties anywhere in Turkey our not, I don't think he "degraded morals" (what does that even mean?) and I don't think he has harmed the Turkish economy. I'm saying he is objectively harming the ideals the Turkish Republic was founded on by Atatürk. I'm not saying this because I think those ideals would allow holding Turkey back for the West to exploit. I'm saying that because I genuinely think Atatürk was a great leader whose principles should be an example for all nations, not just Turkey. I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have (though I'm well aware of how much worse we could have it). I am genuinely upset by those ideals being betrayed by Erdogan and the Turkish people having chosen a path that stands against everything Turkey was founded on. I am German, a lot of my classmates in school were Turkish immigrants. I even took a Turkish language course in elementary school (although I can barely remember anything beyond "bir iki üç"). I would have loved to see Turkey succeed as a modern state and become an example other nations in the Islamic world can look up to. At this point I'm not even sure Turkey would be salvageable if Erdogan was gone. When I said this is a political tragedy, I mean it.

denzil_correa 10y ago
> I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have Curious, what mess does Germany find itself in with respect to Ataturk's principles?
- aws_ls 10y ago
  I think @pluma means that the mass nationalistic hysteria which was generated after WW1 leading to WW2, would not have happened, if like Turkey military, German military would have preempted all the events by a coup. Also they suggest that the present mass nationalism in Turkey has vague equivalence in what happened in Germany after WW1 leading upto WW2. PS: I am finding this page discussions very educating. Thanks for several comments by @pluma, and also some very good arguments against.

grandalf 10y ago

This is a superb point. Americans are so quick to rally against any foreign leader that is sympathetic to Islam. In the US we've had decades of anti-Islamic propaganda, since it has helped sell various war efforts. All countries have some internal forces of pluralism and some internal voices of absolutism, for a variety of contemporary and historical reasons, and all citizens have the ability to consent and to dissent, and to thus influence their own destiny. In the US, we are such sheep that we enjoy indignantly criticizing the character of foreign leaders we know nothing about... while ignoring the atrocities committed by our own nation and the humanitarian disasters that we create abroad (and tolerate at home). Propaganda isn't simply about promoting specific beliefs, it's about creating a distorted sense of what is important. So many Americans view "stopping Islamic fundamentalism" as significant and more important than so many other things. This view is the result of Billions of dollars spent on propaganda over decades. Dehumanization propaganda (which the US is expert at) creates a political environment where many (most?) American citizens are dismissive of the basic rationality (and basic human rights) of anyone characterized as Islamic. I believe that power systems gradually progress from "power by force" into something that looks more like pluralistic democracy. Not because the power holders decide to give up some of the power, but because they are successfully able to whitewash their nature by using propaganda messages. Over time, the government that waged genocide against native Americans and killed millions of Japanese civilians becomes the government that wants to wage a Trillion dollar war to free Iraqi women from oppression. This is not the steady march of humanitarian progress. It's the enveloping propaganda narrative. We are just as barbaric now as ever, and our most recent genocide has been against the Iraqi people and the victims of the drone attacks throughout the region. The anti-Islamic narrative used by the US Government to sell wars in the middle east has resulted in massive transfers of wealth... Generally, the plunder of a natural-resource-rich region by the US. There is absolutely no desire on the part of the US to create democracy or pluralism in the middle east. Islamic solidarity groups, the only sort of grassroots political movement likely to stop the region's US-supported dictators, are of course vilified by the US because they also oppose US-led destabilization of the region.

tptacek 10y ago
You don't even have to support an Islamist Turkey to have problems with military coups. I think Erdogan is highly problematic and that the direction Turkey is taking will materially harm a generation of its people. But even that is a better outcome than a military coup! I don't like Islamist governments (any more than I'd like a Christian Fundamentalist government here --- "Christian", by the way, being a word that could fairly be applied to me), but I too get the strong sense that the only factor being weighed by supporters of the coup on this thread, whether they're well-informed enough to invoke Ataturk or not, is "Islamism bad, anything else good". No.

tremon 10y ago

He is evil I'm sure that some people say that. So what? Some other politicians that have been called the same: G.W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Nigel Farage, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande. He is religious Are you suggesting that he isn't? He is undemocratic And there's ample evidence that he is. Democracy requires freedom of the press and free speech. When his government raids newspaper headquarters and installs puppet editors, he very much is undemocratic. He talks about death penalty It's not that he talks about it, it's about why and when he talks about it. Namely, to get rid of political rivals. we would rather support coup dictat sisi in egypt who gave 6000 people death penalty for "protests" Who is "we" here? Most European governments did as much about that as they do about Erdogan's latest purge: they wagged their finger.