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Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The milit

by pluma 10y ago

Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The military is sworn to uphold the ideals of the Republic. The police is sworn to serve the government. The military has always tried to keep civilians out of the conflicts. As a German and knowing my country's history I think a violent escape hatch is always necessary and justified. Both Germany and the US have something quite similar except they don't have a designated protector but instead put that duty on their citizens -- which means the citizens would have to fight against professional soldiers, which is exactly what a military coup would avoid. You cite Popper, I cite Clausewitz: violence should be avoided, but if all else fails it should be regarded as the continuation of politics with other means. The important distinction is that it must be temporary and it must be avoided if at all possible. The coups wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for autocrats like Erdogan who try to corrupt the ideals they were supposed to uphold. Turkish military coups are the equivalent of law enforcement using lethal force: it should never happen, but when it becomes absolutely necessary it will save more lives than it costs. I'd even go so far as to say that if post-WW1 Germany had been modelled like Turkey, the nazis could have never risen to power. Unless the government, like Erdogan did, corrupted the military by replacing its leadership with its conspirators.

vintermann 10y ago
"Both Germany and the US have something quite similar except they don't have a designated protector but instead put that duty on their citizens" and that's a fricking huge difference. Speaking of the military's freedom to topple governments as a duty, as if it was a burden and not a pure power of privilege? Imagine that the military fails in its "obligation" to topple governments. They let a government stay that should have been toppled. Will they pay? Will anyone punish them? Of course not. You say it "must be avoided if at all possible", but who gets to make that call? That's right, only the generals themselves. But for the people it's completely different. They - we - have skin in the game, it's we who will suffer if a tyrannical government is allowed to stay. Which is why we, and only we, none of our high-minded "protectors" internal or external should have the final word on whether revolution might be "worth it". > Unless the government, like Erdogan did, corrupted the military You think that the default status of a military is to be uncorrupt. Interestingly enough, that is a mistake the US founders didn't make - although their opposition to standing armies has fallen by the wayside long ago.
gkya 10y ago
> Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. I hope that this is ignorance. In '61 the prime minister and two ministers were executed. In '80 there were about 600 thousand arrests, thousands of torture cases and thousands of killings. The sufferers were mostly communists and leftist alike, and extreme-right. I'm from Turkey and I'll tell you this: If we have all these problems, it's because Kemalist revolutions. I would certainly love to live in his dream country (except for the extra-nationalism part), but the revolutions were without tolerance and impatient. Most of the people sort of swallowed it, when muslim reformists got power, they had the army in front of them. Up until the mid-90s bloodshed solved everything. But since one and a half a decade, they have asserted themselves, they now think that they have the power. Erdogan and the like know how to speak to them. He shows them the carrot, all run. They believe they'll get back the old glorious days, except they don't know nothing about the old glory, thanks to century long assimilation and constructed history. Thus, being already ignorant, and in the spell of The New Glory, they believe what they are told on the TV. This ignorance has been created by the anachronism and traditionmaking of the post-WWI regime and sequent politics of nationalism, fed also by the coups, inventing an anatolian people that came from central asia, and that only remotely knows what happened between 10th and 20th century. Now the people is at the hands of them to be manipulated. They have forgotten the reality of pre-40s, and they are searching an identity, that's honourable and clean, and they follow whomever that invents likeable things. Why are the potent are shouting to the US now? Because it pleases who thinks «The US runs the world, and there are 5 rich jewish families behind them,» i.e. ignorant conspiracy-theory lovers. Why are they this ignorant? Because the past was intentionally distorted by the nationalist and patriotist elite, the revolutionists, the coupists and the like.
- deleted 10y ago
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by pluma 10y ago

vintermann 10y ago

"Both Germany and the US have something quite similar except they don't have a designated protector but instead put that duty on their citizens" and that's a fricking huge difference. Speaking of the military's freedom to topple governments as a duty, as if it was a burden and not a pure power of privilege? Imagine that the military fails in its "obligation" to topple governments. They let a government stay that should have been toppled. Will they pay? Will anyone punish them? Of course not. You say it "must be avoided if at all possible", but who gets to make that call? That's right, only the generals themselves. But for the people it's completely different. They - we - have skin in the game, it's we who will suffer if a tyrannical government is allowed to stay. Which is why we, and only we, none of our high-minded "protectors" internal or external should have the final word on whether revolution might be "worth it". > Unless the government, like Erdogan did, corrupted the military You think that the default status of a military is to be uncorrupt. Interestingly enough, that is a mistake the US founders didn't make - although their opposition to standing armies has fallen by the wayside long ago.

gkya 10y ago

> Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. I hope that this is ignorance. In '61 the prime minister and two ministers were executed. In '80 there were about 600 thousand arrests, thousands of torture cases and thousands of killings. The sufferers were mostly communists and leftist alike, and extreme-right. I'm from Turkey and I'll tell you this: If we have all these problems, it's because Kemalist revolutions. I would certainly love to live in his dream country (except for the extra-nationalism part), but the revolutions were without tolerance and impatient. Most of the people sort of swallowed it, when muslim reformists got power, they had the army in front of them. Up until the mid-90s bloodshed solved everything. But since one and a half a decade, they have asserted themselves, they now think that they have the power. Erdogan and the like know how to speak to them. He shows them the carrot, all run. They believe they'll get back the old glorious days, except they don't know nothing about the old glory, thanks to century long assimilation and constructed history. Thus, being already ignorant, and in the spell of The New Glory, they believe what they are told on the TV. This ignorance has been created by the anachronism and traditionmaking of the post-WWI regime and sequent politics of nationalism, fed also by the coups, inventing an anatolian people that came from central asia, and that only remotely knows what happened between 10th and 20th century. Now the people is at the hands of them to be manipulated. They have forgotten the reality of pre-40s, and they are searching an identity, that's honourable and clean, and they follow whomever that invents likeable things. Why are the potent are shouting to the US now? Because it pleases who thinks «The US runs the world, and there are 5 rich jewish families behind them,» i.e. ignorant conspiracy-theory lovers. Why are they this ignorant? Because the past was intentionally distorted by the nationalist and patriotist elite, the revolutionists, the coupists and the like.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]