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Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

cdash 10y ago
The people have always been supporters of this path. That is why the reset button had to keep on being pushed by the military.
- pluma 10y ago
  This isn't entirely wrong. Turkey started out as the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, an Islamic caliphate. Atatürk created a secular republic inspired by modern Western nations and culture. He even went so far as to change the writing system. It's fairly safe to say that Atatürk's ideals have always been in strong conflict with the will of a certain part of the demographic (e.g. fundamentalists) as well as people from many of the neighboring countries. Consider the controversies in France and other European countries surrounding (proposed) bans on headscarfs and burkas -- then consider that headscarfs have been banned in Turkish universities for decades (though this ban was not always extended to students). It's entirely possible to democratically elect a government that reaches majority support while harming the entire nation and the well-being of future generations. This is why certain laws are treated as immutable in most republics -- no matter how much the people want to change it.
  - manish_karan 10y ago
    Amazing how you give exmple of ban of "scarf" to compare the "democratic-ness"
  - pluma 10y ago
    In reply to the dead comment: I'm not saying banning scarfs is an example of democracy. I'm saying it's an example of the will of the people being overruled by the founding principle of Laicism. Even though the people want to have it, the constitution prohibits it.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  I would be interested to hear from people who are down voting this why they are doing that? On the surface this seems like a reasonable assumption given the role of the Turkish military.
  - toyg 10y ago
    Maybe because "the people" is a dangerous generalisation. I'm pretty sure huge swaths of Turkish citizenry don't really want to live in some Iran-style "democratic theocracy".
guard-of-terra 10y ago
> People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. A doubt all of them are. Just as with Brexit, popular opinion might be divided.
- emilsedgh 10y ago
  Of course not all. But he seems to have the democratic support. As most people prefer it.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    Having democratic support doesn't entitle him with right to dismantle the very system that let him be elected, and in my uneducated opinion that's what he does. Democracy is playing by the rules, not changing these rules each few years as you see fit, even while quoting "popular support" (but not holding any referendums, definitely).
  - toyg 10y ago
    Define "democratic". He consistently imprisoned opposition members and journalists, banned parties, fixed elections... Support is there, but let's not pretend it's so overwhelming -- in the last two elections, he failed to reach the supermajorities he craved and was forced to reshuffle an unpopular government. Despite all sorts of shocks, there is a quantifiable amount of people resisting his rule. Hopefully this won't change after these horrifying purges.
pluma 10y ago
Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only outside the country but also within and he seems to be hellbent on exploiting religion to gain political support. I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself but he certainly knows how to use them to his advantage. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turke...
- finid 10y ago
  > I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself... He does, actually. Google what he said about women.
  - pluma 10y ago
    You don't need to believe in religion to be a chauvinist, though.
    - creshal 10y ago
      And don't need to believe in anything to publicly support positions you think will get you votes.
      - gkya 10y ago
        Today's Turkey is the glory of "populism".
    - finid 10y ago
      I agree, but his fundamentalist religious views are well-documented. The only difference between him and the Saudis is he does not wear funny outfits
  - deleted 10y ago
virtualritz 10y ago
The people who went to the streets, against the coup, where Erdogan's supporters. The majority of the populace in Ankara & Istanbul stayed in their houses. I.e. the only people on the streets where those against the coup. We do not know how many of the majority, who didn't take to the streets where for or against its success.
- afsina 10y ago
  No, people has families and children and for a million other reason they may choose not to go to streets. It is idiotic to think that they are supporting the coup.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    It's not idiotic to think that some support the coup, and the parent poster specifically says we simply don't know how many support it or not.
shabaan 10y ago
Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees) Why does he have to be pleasing to you? Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals are stained. They compare no where close to Erdogan. But your media has him hating with all kind of funny things. Anyways, You should be ashamed about the ban of headscarfs .. while claiming the "freedom"-superiority. Instead you are giving it an example for the "democracy". Guess we should re-define democracy as "bigotcracy"
- unethical_ban 10y ago
  Do you want the Americans to fight the terrorists in Syria, or no? War is not without collateral damage. Our country gets criticized for not doing enough when we try to stay out of it, or for "murder" when we take violent action and someone innocent gets hurt. Erdogan jails journalists who don't like him, and has committed a purge of police, judges and teachers who he disagrees with. If President Obama dissolved police departments, school districts and judgeships on a wide scale, there would be mass protests or a civil war. We expect freedom of speech and freedom of thought, unlike many in Turkey, it seems. edit: I'd like to leave this here to show what he has done since the "coup". https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turkish_academics_banned_from_traveling/d5jbyy6 https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turki...
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Is he merciful to the Kurds that helps fight IS or is he bombing them? Is he trying to force Germany to punish a comedian? Is he trying to reintroduce death penalty? Has he purged more than 2000 judges? Is it reasonable to think he has verified that all of them were bad judges during the two-three last days?
  - afsina 10y ago
    Too much drama? - PKK is killing your soldiers what do you do? This has nothing to do with IS. - Ok, he has a temper and does not have a good sense of humor but please, did you find "that" poem funny? - Oh come on. You know it was not about being bad judges. Though yes, reintroduction of death penalty is a very bad idea. Also things are being done too hastily. All allegations are need to be verified.
fredThrind 10y ago
I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates of other nations-it's a weird throwback to the imperialist mindset. I wonder if we'd be as supportive of the US military taking over, in the interests of National Security if say, Trump, won the election and withdrew from Europe and East Asia? Or if Scotland voted to secede from the UK with the consent of the Commons, and the British Army decided that its duty was to protect the Union, and overthrow an elected government? There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? In any case, I fear this is all going to be moot. The commentariat is starting to make noises about the Kremlin supporting all manner of extremist candidates and positions in the West, including Brexit, Marine Le Pen, and Trump himself. Putin may have found the soft underbelly of Western democracy: money. I hope this isn't the case as I'll be as much a victim as anyone; but if it is, it will be the first bitter taste of the foreign meddling and sense of imperious entitlement we've been demonstrating for centuries.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? Democracy is not simply the rule of majority. There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.
  - pabloski 10y ago
    Are you serious? Democracy is first and foremost the government of the majority. Whoever defines himself as democratic must respect the will of the majority. Sic et simplicitur.

cdash 10y ago

The people have always been supporters of this path. That is why the reset button had to keep on being pushed by the military.

pluma 10y ago
This isn't entirely wrong. Turkey started out as the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, an Islamic caliphate. Atatürk created a secular republic inspired by modern Western nations and culture. He even went so far as to change the writing system. It's fairly safe to say that Atatürk's ideals have always been in strong conflict with the will of a certain part of the demographic (e.g. fundamentalists) as well as people from many of the neighboring countries. Consider the controversies in France and other European countries surrounding (proposed) bans on headscarfs and burkas -- then consider that headscarfs have been banned in Turkish universities for decades (though this ban was not always extended to students). It's entirely possible to democratically elect a government that reaches majority support while harming the entire nation and the well-being of future generations. This is why certain laws are treated as immutable in most republics -- no matter how much the people want to change it.
- manish_karan 10y ago
  Amazing how you give exmple of ban of "scarf" to compare the "democratic-ness"
- pluma 10y ago
  In reply to the dead comment: I'm not saying banning scarfs is an example of democracy. I'm saying it's an example of the will of the people being overruled by the founding principle of Laicism. Even though the people want to have it, the constitution prohibits it.
ajmurmann 10y ago
I would be interested to hear from people who are down voting this why they are doing that? On the surface this seems like a reasonable assumption given the role of the Turkish military.
- toyg 10y ago
  Maybe because "the people" is a dangerous generalisation. I'm pretty sure huge swaths of Turkish citizenry don't really want to live in some Iran-style "democratic theocracy".

guard-of-terra 10y ago

> People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. A doubt all of them are. Just as with Brexit, popular opinion might be divided.

emilsedgh 10y ago
Of course not all. But he seems to have the democratic support. As most people prefer it.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  Having democratic support doesn't entitle him with right to dismantle the very system that let him be elected, and in my uneducated opinion that's what he does. Democracy is playing by the rules, not changing these rules each few years as you see fit, even while quoting "popular support" (but not holding any referendums, definitely).
- toyg 10y ago
  Define "democratic". He consistently imprisoned opposition members and journalists, banned parties, fixed elections... Support is there, but let's not pretend it's so overwhelming -- in the last two elections, he failed to reach the supermajorities he craved and was forced to reshuffle an unpopular government. Despite all sorts of shocks, there is a quantifiable amount of people resisting his rule. Hopefully this won't change after these horrifying purges.

pluma 10y ago

Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only outside the country but also within and he seems to be hellbent on exploiting religion to gain political support. I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself but he certainly knows how to use them to his advantage. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turke...

finid 10y ago
> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself... He does, actually. Google what he said about women.
- pluma 10y ago
  You don't need to believe in religion to be a chauvinist, though.
  - creshal 10y ago
    And don't need to believe in anything to publicly support positions you think will get you votes.
    - gkya 10y ago
      Today's Turkey is the glory of "populism".
  - finid 10y ago
    I agree, but his fundamentalist religious views are well-documented. The only difference between him and the Saudis is he does not wear funny outfits
- deleted 10y ago

virtualritz 10y ago

The people who went to the streets, against the coup, where Erdogan's supporters. The majority of the populace in Ankara & Istanbul stayed in their houses. I.e. the only people on the streets where those against the coup. We do not know how many of the majority, who didn't take to the streets where for or against its success.

afsina 10y ago
No, people has families and children and for a million other reason they may choose not to go to streets. It is idiotic to think that they are supporting the coup.
- icebraining 10y ago
  It's not idiotic to think that some support the coup, and the parent poster specifically says we simply don't know how many support it or not.

shabaan 10y ago

Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees) Why does he have to be pleasing to you? Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals are stained. They compare no where close to Erdogan. But your media has him hating with all kind of funny things. Anyways, You should be ashamed about the ban of headscarfs .. while claiming the "freedom"-superiority. Instead you are giving it an example for the "democracy". Guess we should re-define democracy as "bigotcracy"

unethical_ban 10y ago
Do you want the Americans to fight the terrorists in Syria, or no? War is not without collateral damage. Our country gets criticized for not doing enough when we try to stay out of it, or for "murder" when we take violent action and someone innocent gets hurt. Erdogan jails journalists who don't like him, and has committed a purge of police, judges and teachers who he disagrees with. If President Obama dissolved police departments, school districts and judgeships on a wide scale, there would be mass protests or a civil war. We expect freedom of speech and freedom of thought, unlike many in Turkey, it seems. edit: I'd like to leave this here to show what he has done since the "coup". https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turkish_academics_banned_from_traveling/d5jbyy6 https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turki...
reitanqild 10y ago
Is he merciful to the Kurds that helps fight IS or is he bombing them? Is he trying to force Germany to punish a comedian? Is he trying to reintroduce death penalty? Has he purged more than 2000 judges? Is it reasonable to think he has verified that all of them were bad judges during the two-three last days?
- afsina 10y ago
  Too much drama? - PKK is killing your soldiers what do you do? This has nothing to do with IS. - Ok, he has a temper and does not have a good sense of humor but please, did you find "that" poem funny? - Oh come on. You know it was not about being bad judges. Though yes, reintroduction of death penalty is a very bad idea. Also things are being done too hastily. All allegations are need to be verified.

fredThrind 10y ago

I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates of other nations-it's a weird throwback to the imperialist mindset. I wonder if we'd be as supportive of the US military taking over, in the interests of National Security if say, Trump, won the election and withdrew from Europe and East Asia? Or if Scotland voted to secede from the UK with the consent of the Commons, and the British Army decided that its duty was to protect the Union, and overthrow an elected government? There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? In any case, I fear this is all going to be moot. The commentariat is starting to make noises about the Kremlin supporting all manner of extremist candidates and positions in the West, including Brexit, Marine Le Pen, and Trump himself. Putin may have found the soft underbelly of Western democracy: money. I hope this isn't the case as I'll be as much a victim as anyone; but if it is, it will be the first bitter taste of the foreign meddling and sense of imperious entitlement we've been demonstrating for centuries.

denzil_correa 10y ago
> There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? Democracy is not simply the rule of majority. There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.
- pabloski 10y ago
  Are you serious? Democracy is first and foremost the government of the majority. Whoever defines himself as democratic must respect the will of the majority. Sic et simplicitur.