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That's the exact opposite of the intention of a Code of Conduct. Can you point out exactly what isnt welcoming about rules like "no racism" or "criticize code,

That's the exact opposite of the intention of a Code of Conduct. Can you point out exactly what isnt welcoming about rules like "no racism" or "criticize code, not people"? Do you have a burning desire to call people "honkey" in code reviews? Can't live without calling people stupid for being old/young? Is being prohibited from stalking other contributors so you can call their workplace and get them in trouble a huge problem for you? This sounds like unjustified whining without any basis in actual fact or experience... iow "get off my lawn damn kids!!!". A code of conduct is usually just shorthand for "don't be a jerk, be a professional".

moosingin3space 10y ago
I agree with you. For a practical example, the Rust Code of Conduct has done an excellent job at being inviting. Even our community's most divisive arguments remain civil, which, as a side effect, means more discussion, so each others' perspectives are better explored.
MichaelGG 10y ago
GitHub code of conduct actually is in favor of racism, if you're in the wrong group. Ditto for sexism. "We will not act on complaints regarding ‘reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’" That they even use the term "reverse racism" is telling. This is from a company that, in internal training, has anti-white material. "This is not work for white people", "biggest barriers to progress are white women". https://m.imgur.com/7YaVYUx?r https://m.imgur.com/7YaVYUx?r I don't particularly care, but if you're going to be inclusive, it should be technically inclusive, not loaded with politics. I'd bet there's a lot of people like me, thinking a egalitarian would be far less of an issue though I don't like curtailing expression, abrasive it may be, nor policing people in their personal lives.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  Those quotes are inexcusable but are from a talk given by the presenter prior to her working with Github.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    Ah my mistake. It wasn't at GitHub then? I guess it fit the narrative so I didn't verify. OTOH if they hired such a person for a related position, that speaks a lot. (If it was a technical hire, less so.)
falcolas 10y ago
If you have to rely on a CoC to get your contributors to not "be jerks" and "be professional", you have other issues with your community which really need to be addressed first. No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk. It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors. Worse, it brings about those who only want to criticize the CoC, either because it's too strict, or too lenient. Taking the time to address critiques on a CoC is time taken away from actually developing on a project and building a community who cares about the project, not the CoC.
- sanswork 10y ago
  >No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk. Right but it will remove the jerks from the community. >It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors. How do you imagine this happening? >Taking the time to address critiques on a CoC is time taken away from actually developing on a project and building a community who cares about the project, not the CoC. Spending time complaining about a set of guidelines that say don't be a jerk is time taken away from actually developing on a project. Except the people doing it are complaining about not being allowed to be jerks.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    > Right but it will remove the jerks from the community. How, exactly? The CoC does nothing but codify someone's values for a community. It doesn't actually do anything, other than state a set of unacceptable behaviors and potential solutions to those behaviors. It's still up to the contributors to actually act, and if your community is good in the first place, they won't need the prompting of a CoC to act against jerks. > How do you imagine this happening? Easily - a CoC leaves a lot of grey areas, which provide plenty of room for griefing and harassment which isn't technically against the CoC. And if an action falls within that grey area, someone, or several someones, has to take time and not just say "this is bad", they have to tie that judgement back into the CoC somehow. It's even worse when there are consequences in the CoC for "lack of enforcement of the CoC" - being perceived as doing nothing can remove someone as a contributor. It's worth remembering, we're (mostly) developers, not lawyers. > Except the people doing it are complaining about not being allowed to be jerks. Are most of the people in this thread of comments complaining about not being able to harass or abuse other people? Or are they raising concerns about the ambiguous nature of these CoCs, and the perceived unnecessity? More specifically, how much time did Matz have to take out of his development schedule just to address the complaints against Ruby's CoC?
ciupicri 10y ago
What does professional mean, someone who doesn't say shit as mentioned in the history of the Agile manifesto? [1] > This freedom from the inanities of corporate life attracts proponents of Agile Methodologies, and scares the begeebers (you can’t use the word ‘shit’ in a professional paper) out of traditionalists. [1]: http://agilemanifesto.org/history.html http://agilemanifesto.org/history.html

moosingin3space 10y ago

I agree with you. For a practical example, the Rust Code of Conduct has done an excellent job at being inviting. Even our community's most divisive arguments remain civil, which, as a side effect, means more discussion, so each others' perspectives are better explored.

MichaelGG 10y ago

GitHub code of conduct actually is in favor of racism, if you're in the wrong group. Ditto for sexism. "We will not act on complaints regarding ‘reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’" That they even use the term "reverse racism" is telling. This is from a company that, in internal training, has anti-white material. "This is not work for white people", "biggest barriers to progress are white women". https://m.imgur.com/7YaVYUx?r https://m.imgur.com/7YaVYUx?r I don't particularly care, but if you're going to be inclusive, it should be technically inclusive, not loaded with politics. I'd bet there's a lot of people like me, thinking a egalitarian would be far less of an issue though I don't like curtailing expression, abrasive it may be, nor policing people in their personal lives.

jcoffland 10y ago
Those quotes are inexcusable but are from a talk given by the presenter prior to her working with Github.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Ah my mistake. It wasn't at GitHub then? I guess it fit the narrative so I didn't verify. OTOH if they hired such a person for a related position, that speaks a lot. (If it was a technical hire, less so.)

falcolas 10y ago

If you have to rely on a CoC to get your contributors to not "be jerks" and "be professional", you have other issues with your community which really need to be addressed first. No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk. It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors. Worse, it brings about those who only want to criticize the CoC, either because it's too strict, or too lenient. Taking the time to address critiques on a CoC is time taken away from actually developing on a project and building a community who cares about the project, not the CoC.

sanswork 10y ago
>No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk. Right but it will remove the jerks from the community. >It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors. How do you imagine this happening? >Taking the time to address critiques on a CoC is time taken away from actually developing on a project and building a community who cares about the project, not the CoC. Spending time complaining about a set of guidelines that say don't be a jerk is time taken away from actually developing on a project. Except the people doing it are complaining about not being allowed to be jerks.
- falcolas 10y ago
  > Right but it will remove the jerks from the community. How, exactly? The CoC does nothing but codify someone's values for a community. It doesn't actually do anything, other than state a set of unacceptable behaviors and potential solutions to those behaviors. It's still up to the contributors to actually act, and if your community is good in the first place, they won't need the prompting of a CoC to act against jerks. > How do you imagine this happening? Easily - a CoC leaves a lot of grey areas, which provide plenty of room for griefing and harassment which isn't technically against the CoC. And if an action falls within that grey area, someone, or several someones, has to take time and not just say "this is bad", they have to tie that judgement back into the CoC somehow. It's even worse when there are consequences in the CoC for "lack of enforcement of the CoC" - being perceived as doing nothing can remove someone as a contributor. It's worth remembering, we're (mostly) developers, not lawyers. > Except the people doing it are complaining about not being allowed to be jerks. Are most of the people in this thread of comments complaining about not being able to harass or abuse other people? Or are they raising concerns about the ambiguous nature of these CoCs, and the perceived unnecessity? More specifically, how much time did Matz have to take out of his development schedule just to address the complaints against Ruby's CoC?

ciupicri 10y ago

What does professional mean, someone who doesn't say shit as mentioned in the history of the Agile manifesto? [1] > This freedom from the inanities of corporate life attracts proponents of Agile Methodologies, and scares the begeebers (you can’t use the word ‘shit’ in a professional paper) out of traditionalists. [1]: http://agilemanifesto.org/history.html http://agilemanifesto.org/history.html