7 ms·

Are you serious or arguing insincerely? I can't tell. Codes of conduct are a direct response to ongoing harassment and stalking against various contributors of

Are you serious or arguing insincerely? I can't tell. Codes of conduct are a direct response to ongoing harassment and stalking against various contributors of various open-source projects, followed by inaction on the part of the project maintainers or the excuse of "that just can't handle criticism". What is so offensive about saying "make it about the code, not about the person" and "don't stalk, dox, or harass people"? A code of conduct is a signal that juvenile behavior won't be tolerated and that if your code reviewer starts sending you dick pics they'll get banned from the project. It doesn't do anything by itself - if the project maintainers don't follow through it is worthless but like security lights and door locks the signaling value has an effect on people's behavior. And for the record it protects while males too.

marssaxman 10y ago
I am completely serious and meant exactly what I said. I did not say that it was offensive; I said that I don't understand where the practice came from. I have never been part of an open source community where "stalking, doxing, or harassing" was a problem - or at least not a problem anyone talked about. It sounds very strange, and it's hard to imagine how people that immature could be capable of doing good engineering work, but if that's the problem then I understand why people are trying to solve it.
- sanswork 10y ago
  > or at least not a problem anyone talked about Is a big part of the problem. A lot participants don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat so they let stuff slide that they really shouldn't in the effort to not be "that person". A formal code of conduct gives people the support up front to come forward with complaints about other members.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  A whole bunch of projects suffer from the issue - even (especially) ones as large as FreeBSD[0]. The issue usually winds up being that some minor contributor - or even just someone who hangs around in the dev channels - harasses some specific woman/trans person/other minority member, and the project has no official framework in which to approach this issue. Often in the project leaders' eyes, the project leader's job is all about code, not community management, leading to a call of "sort it out yourselves" when it's brought up to them - which is essentially a signal that the project will allow its contributors to harass each other without repercussion. Basically - the sorts of people who women have to get conference organisers to have a quiet word with and/or ban don't stop being assholes on the Internet. If anything, they become worse, and it's easier to hide that behaviour when it winds up being in large part through private messages and communication systems other than the project's official ones. (If you were associated with a volunteer group irl, and you started harassing your co-volunteers through Facebook and email and text messages, you'd hopefully be kicked out. Various CoC debates show that many people think that if the volunteer group is online, such behaviour should be excused.) A Code of Conduct isn't magic, but it does provide social proof that the project leaders at least thought of the issues that can affect their contributors, and can provide a yardstick to judge whether a project is likely to at least listen about issues affecting contributors who are members of minorities. [0] https://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/ https://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-know...
  - marssaxman 10y ago
    Thank you for explaining and providing a really shocking example. This helps me understand.
cariaso 10y ago
He's quite sincere, and there are others of us who agree. Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything. I don't need to pre-announce that I will not accept patches from murderers or pedophiles, I can simply do it. The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Perhaps it is generational, and the new guard will eventually win this battle one funeral at a time. But as a politically liberal curmudgeon, 'codes of conduct' feel like the beta release of 'safe spaces'. please go back to Pokemon Go-ing on my lawn... quietly. Daddy has to focus on writing code.
- sanswork 10y ago
  >Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything In other words you've never felt harassed. That's a good thing but it doesn't mean your situation is all encompassing. >The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community?
  - mixedCase 10y ago
    He says "Codes of conduct" don't work and your response is this?: >In other words you've never felt harassed. Do you fail to see the problem here? >Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community? Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"?
    - sanswork 10y ago
      He said codes of conduct don't achieve anything. The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. So no I don't see the problem. >Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"? Apparently yes given the number of abusive people that have been active members of a lot of communities which now have codes of conduct.
mikekchar 10y ago
I'm not the parent poster, but will post anyway. I really don't want to get into this discussion, which is kind of ironic because the reason I don't want to get into the discussion is the very reason codes of conduct are purported to exist. It is very easy to become targeted and vilified if you happen to have a different point of view on the subject. A very common clause in codes of conduct is that people who are identified with a project must uphold the code of contact when they are communicating, even when they do so outside the context of the project. Usually "identified with a project" is defined loosely enough that it can be used fairly indiscriminately. It has happened that people who voiced objectionable ideas outside the context of a project have been forcibly removed from those projects. For some, this is a triumph of justice. For others (and I include myself in this camp) it is further fostering an "us" vs "them" viewpoint, vilifying those whose ideas differ. Interpersonal conflict is difficult and requires considerable skill to moderate. A code of conduct, while it can simply be a communication of the ideals that the project strives towards, can be used as a scaffolding to attack those who we disagree with and wish to punish.
wtbob 10y ago
> A code of conduct is a signal that juvenile behavior won't be tolerated Hardly: a code of conduct is juvenile behaviour. It's like when I was a little kid and drafted a huge constitution for my amazing awesome cool club — that was just me. Adults don't need to write down a code of conduct, because they adhere to an unwritten code of conduct. Children whinge, 'you shouldn't do that, because this says not to!'; adults don't do that, because they know that they oughtn't — and they refrain from associating with others who do. Children want their clique to gang up on the people they don't like; adults simply walk away from those people. Childhood is all about, 'you can't'; adulthood is all about 'I won't.'
- ofbriggs 10y ago
  > Adults don't need to write down a code of conduct, because they adhere to an unwritten code of conduct. Children whinge, 'you shouldn't do that, because this says not to!'; adults don't do that, because they know that they oughtn't — and they refrain from associating with others who do. Children want their clique to gang up on the people they don't like; adults simply walk away from those people. Because no adult has ever harassed another in a programming community? I would love it if everyone behaved politely and courteously, however this is not currently what is happening in some projects. Having a CoC is merely a preventative measure to curb bad behavior for those who can't self-police.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  I agree that that's how it ought to be; I strongly disagree that that's how it is. Plenty of people are physically adults; a subset of those people are mentally adults. This is even worse in the world of tech forums and open source projects than it is in the world at large. FWIW, I have yet to see a code of conduct that really says anything beyond "don't be a jerk, and act like a grownup". It might be silly if it also told me how to dress on Tuesdays and who to vote for, but in reality they rarely or never say anything beyond "don't be a jerk, and act like a grownup." I also have no problem with someone else reminding me of that, because I have to remind myself of that all the time. I don't know why anyone would be offended by such a thing.
  - 10y ago
ciupicri 10y ago
What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.
- drivingmenuts 10y ago
  While one might be an annoying waste of your time, the other is not only annoying, but quite possibly illegal as well. I leave it to you to figure out which is which.
  - ciupicri 10y ago
    What's so illegal in some dick pics?
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      Send one to a person under the age of 18 and I'm sure the prosecution, the judge and possibly your eventual roommate might be willing to explain it in ways that make you regret ever asking that question.
- to3m 10y ago
  The thing that's so bad about dick pics is people don't like them. And what better reason for something being bad could there be?
  - ciupicri 10y ago
    Not people, just some people. Also there are people who don't like cats.
    - to3m 10y ago
      Would you believe I've just spent 25 minutes trying to figure out how to respond to this, and I still don't know. I suppose that means you win.
nitwit005 10y ago
I can't help but notice that no matter how often this comes up, no one ever points to an incident of a code of conduct fixing something. I do see a lot of complaints about heated arguments about having a code of conduct, and plenty of evidence of those arguments existing.
- sanswork 10y ago
  There is one from the Rust team below.
  - nitwit005 10y ago
    As far as I can tell, they are simply claiming it's a project with a code of conduct that seems welcoming. There appear to be projects that don't have a code of conduct that could be described the same way, so it's not useful as evidence of an effect. My university participated in a study that found their anti-alcohol posters appeared to increase student drinking. Admittedly, with not as large a data set as desired, so it's also possible they simply did nothing. You find this with a huge array of both government and non-profit efforts. Most of the time, the things we try to improve society simply don't work, or not to the degree desired.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      They said their discussions have been more productive since the change.
prodigal_erik 10y ago
Out of all codes of conduct, how many will allow the next Linus or Theo de Raadt to emerge? It seems to me that most are driven by the same animus against crimethink that brought us donglegate.

marssaxman 10y ago

I am completely serious and meant exactly what I said. I did not say that it was offensive; I said that I don't understand where the practice came from. I have never been part of an open source community where "stalking, doxing, or harassing" was a problem - or at least not a problem anyone talked about. It sounds very strange, and it's hard to imagine how people that immature could be capable of doing good engineering work, but if that's the problem then I understand why people are trying to solve it.

sanswork 10y ago
> or at least not a problem anyone talked about Is a big part of the problem. A lot participants don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat so they let stuff slide that they really shouldn't in the effort to not be "that person". A formal code of conduct gives people the support up front to come forward with complaints about other members.
vertex-four 10y ago
A whole bunch of projects suffer from the issue - even (especially) ones as large as FreeBSD[0]. The issue usually winds up being that some minor contributor - or even just someone who hangs around in the dev channels - harasses some specific woman/trans person/other minority member, and the project has no official framework in which to approach this issue. Often in the project leaders' eyes, the project leader's job is all about code, not community management, leading to a call of "sort it out yourselves" when it's brought up to them - which is essentially a signal that the project will allow its contributors to harass each other without repercussion. Basically - the sorts of people who women have to get conference organisers to have a quiet word with and/or ban don't stop being assholes on the Internet. If anything, they become worse, and it's easier to hide that behaviour when it winds up being in large part through private messages and communication systems other than the project's official ones. (If you were associated with a volunteer group irl, and you started harassing your co-volunteers through Facebook and email and text messages, you'd hopefully be kicked out. Various CoC debates show that many people think that if the volunteer group is online, such behaviour should be excused.) A Code of Conduct isn't magic, but it does provide social proof that the project leaders at least thought of the issues that can affect their contributors, and can provide a yardstick to judge whether a project is likely to at least listen about issues affecting contributors who are members of minorities. [0] https://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/ https://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-know...
- marssaxman 10y ago
  Thank you for explaining and providing a really shocking example. This helps me understand.

cariaso 10y ago

He's quite sincere, and there are others of us who agree. Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything. I don't need to pre-announce that I will not accept patches from murderers or pedophiles, I can simply do it. The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Perhaps it is generational, and the new guard will eventually win this battle one funeral at a time. But as a politically liberal curmudgeon, 'codes of conduct' feel like the beta release of 'safe spaces'. please go back to Pokemon Go-ing on my lawn... quietly. Daddy has to focus on writing code.

sanswork 10y ago
>Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything In other words you've never felt harassed. That's a good thing but it doesn't mean your situation is all encompassing. >The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community?
- mixedCase 10y ago
  He says "Codes of conduct" don't work and your response is this?: >In other words you've never felt harassed. Do you fail to see the problem here? >Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community? Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"?
  - sanswork 10y ago
    He said codes of conduct don't achieve anything. The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. So no I don't see the problem. >Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"? Apparently yes given the number of abusive people that have been active members of a lot of communities which now have codes of conduct.

mikekchar 10y ago

I'm not the parent poster, but will post anyway. I really don't want to get into this discussion, which is kind of ironic because the reason I don't want to get into the discussion is the very reason codes of conduct are purported to exist. It is very easy to become targeted and vilified if you happen to have a different point of view on the subject. A very common clause in codes of conduct is that people who are identified with a project must uphold the code of contact when they are communicating, even when they do so outside the context of the project. Usually "identified with a project" is defined loosely enough that it can be used fairly indiscriminately. It has happened that people who voiced objectionable ideas outside the context of a project have been forcibly removed from those projects. For some, this is a triumph of justice. For others (and I include myself in this camp) it is further fostering an "us" vs "them" viewpoint, vilifying those whose ideas differ. Interpersonal conflict is difficult and requires considerable skill to moderate. A code of conduct, while it can simply be a communication of the ideals that the project strives towards, can be used as a scaffolding to attack those who we disagree with and wish to punish.

wtbob 10y ago

> A code of conduct is a signal that juvenile behavior won't be tolerated Hardly: a code of conduct is juvenile behaviour. It's like when I was a little kid and drafted a huge constitution for my amazing awesome cool club — that was just me. Adults don't need to write down a code of conduct, because they adhere to an unwritten code of conduct. Children whinge, 'you shouldn't do that, because this says not to!'; adults don't do that, because they know that they oughtn't — and they refrain from associating with others who do. Children want their clique to gang up on the people they don't like; adults simply walk away from those people. Childhood is all about, 'you can't'; adulthood is all about 'I won't.'

ofbriggs 10y ago
> Adults don't need to write down a code of conduct, because they adhere to an unwritten code of conduct. Children whinge, 'you shouldn't do that, because this says not to!'; adults don't do that, because they know that they oughtn't — and they refrain from associating with others who do. Children want their clique to gang up on the people they don't like; adults simply walk away from those people. Because no adult has ever harassed another in a programming community? I would love it if everyone behaved politely and courteously, however this is not currently what is happening in some projects. Having a CoC is merely a preventative measure to curb bad behavior for those who can't self-police.
mwfunk 10y ago
I agree that that's how it ought to be; I strongly disagree that that's how it is. Plenty of people are physically adults; a subset of those people are mentally adults. This is even worse in the world of tech forums and open source projects than it is in the world at large. FWIW, I have yet to see a code of conduct that really says anything beyond "don't be a jerk, and act like a grownup". It might be silly if it also told me how to dress on Tuesdays and who to vote for, but in reality they rarely or never say anything beyond "don't be a jerk, and act like a grownup." I also have no problem with someone else reminding me of that, because I have to remind myself of that all the time. I don't know why anyone would be offended by such a thing.
- 10y ago

ciupicri 10y ago

What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.

drivingmenuts 10y ago
While one might be an annoying waste of your time, the other is not only annoying, but quite possibly illegal as well. I leave it to you to figure out which is which.
- ciupicri 10y ago
  What's so illegal in some dick pics?
  - drivingmenuts 10y ago
    Send one to a person under the age of 18 and I'm sure the prosecution, the judge and possibly your eventual roommate might be willing to explain it in ways that make you regret ever asking that question.
to3m 10y ago
The thing that's so bad about dick pics is people don't like them. And what better reason for something being bad could there be?
- ciupicri 10y ago
  Not people, just some people. Also there are people who don't like cats.
  - to3m 10y ago
    Would you believe I've just spent 25 minutes trying to figure out how to respond to this, and I still don't know. I suppose that means you win.

nitwit005 10y ago

I can't help but notice that no matter how often this comes up, no one ever points to an incident of a code of conduct fixing something. I do see a lot of complaints about heated arguments about having a code of conduct, and plenty of evidence of those arguments existing.

sanswork 10y ago
There is one from the Rust team below.
- nitwit005 10y ago
  As far as I can tell, they are simply claiming it's a project with a code of conduct that seems welcoming. There appear to be projects that don't have a code of conduct that could be described the same way, so it's not useful as evidence of an effect. My university participated in a study that found their anti-alcohol posters appeared to increase student drinking. Admittedly, with not as large a data set as desired, so it's also possible they simply did nothing. You find this with a huge array of both government and non-profit efforts. Most of the time, the things we try to improve society simply don't work, or not to the degree desired.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    They said their discussions have been more productive since the change.

prodigal_erik 10y ago

Out of all codes of conduct, how many will allow the next Linus or Theo de Raadt to emerge? It seems to me that most are driven by the same animus against crimethink that brought us donglegate.