3 ms·

> Do we have a grasp on what it would take to treat the stdlib as a "first class" citizen? One of the solutions to this problem could be having package managem

> Do we have a grasp on what it would take to treat the stdlib as a "first class" citizen? One of the solutions to this problem could be having package management in your language be a first-class citizen, then treating each part of the stdlib as a separate package. If using stdlib code is just as simple as using 3rd-party libraries, then why need a stdlib at all?

nostrademons 10y ago
It's because languages are communication tools as well as compilers, and the stdlib is part of the common vocabulary that the rest of the language ecosystem shares. Without a decent stdlib, you end up with the pre-STL C++ situation, where every library & framework declares its own string, vector, and hashmap classes and you need slow, verbose, and error-prone routines to convert between them. The main benefit of having these in the stdlib isn't that you don't have to re-implement them, it's that every third-party lib knows exactly which class represents the concepts of text, sequences, and dictionaries. The same goes for many other types, eg. Promises, Paths, URIs, Dates, Input/OutputStreams, Iterators, etc. Indeed, when one of the stdlib types is misdesigned (eg. java.util.Date), you get an utter mess as the community converges on an alternative (eg. JodaTime) and then the alternative API is folded back into the stdlib (Java 8). Luckily, we're learning just which types need to be in the stdlib and which can be outsourced to a third-party package manager. In particular, a lot of serialization/parsing formats are better off in a package manager, as long as the language defines an annotation system that can be used to define which fields must be saved. And giant systems like webservers, webframeworks, or RPC formats are often better off as a third-party library.

3 ms·

> Do we have a grasp on what it would take to treat the stdlib as a "first class" citizen? One of the solutions to this problem could be having package managem

by tomphoolery 10y ago

nostrademons 10y ago
It's because languages are communication tools as well as compilers, and the stdlib is part of the common vocabulary that the rest of the language ecosystem shares. Without a decent stdlib, you end up with the pre-STL C++ situation, where every library & framework declares its own string, vector, and hashmap classes and you need slow, verbose, and error-prone routines to convert between them. The main benefit of having these in the stdlib isn't that you don't have to re-implement them, it's that every third-party lib knows exactly which class represents the concepts of text, sequences, and dictionaries. The same goes for many other types, eg. Promises, Paths, URIs, Dates, Input/OutputStreams, Iterators, etc. Indeed, when one of the stdlib types is misdesigned (eg. java.util.Date), you get an utter mess as the community converges on an alternative (eg. JodaTime) and then the alternative API is folded back into the stdlib (Java 8). Luckily, we're learning just which types need to be in the stdlib and which can be outsourced to a third-party package manager. In particular, a lot of serialization/parsing formats are better off in a package manager, as long as the language defines an annotation system that can be used to define which fields must be saved. And giant systems like webservers, webframeworks, or RPC formats are often better off as a third-party library.