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Everyone came out against this coup because they either thought it was orchestrated by the other islamist faction, or thought it would fail. If a secular milit

by learc83 10y ago

Everyone came out against this coup because they either thought it was orchestrated by the other islamist faction, or thought it would fail. If a secular military coup looked likely to be successful, the west would be ecstatic.

utopcell 10y ago
elaborate
jessriedel 10y ago
Who thought this was orchestrated by another other islamist faction in the military? I never heard during any of the coverage that anyone thought the folks behind the coup weren't secular.
- learc83 10y ago
  Erdogan immediately started referencing a "parallel government" which many commentators took to mean the islamist faction led by Fethullah Gulen. When I was reading coverage during the first few hours of the coup Fethullah Gulen was mentioned repeatedly as the possible orchestrator.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    Hmm, I never heard this until a couple days into the coup, well after it was clear it was unsuccessful. Would be interesting to know what the US intelligence experts actually thought.
simonh 10y ago
> If a secular military coup looked likely to be successful, the west would be ecstatic. What the West wants is a secular, pluralistic, economically and socially secure and stable Turkey under the rule of law. A military government might tick one or two of those boxes in the short term, but the rest (and all of them long term) can only be achieved via democracy.
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  Thats why china failed big time. Ups, wrong parallel universe.. This tale gets better every time its told.
  - pas 10y ago
    China is a very scary socioeconomic engine rushing down the road, and it could slide off the road and crash and burn, and go fucking boom into something rather scary. It's already very bad in certain things. Like freedom of the press (and other civil liberties). Putin's Russia is sort of arriving there with the new communications wiretapping requirements, whereas China has the Golden Shield Firewall operating for the past decade. Russian prosecutors going rouge and openly ally with the mob? A new and scary thing. But we never even heard of Chinese prosecutors doing anything other than what the current state (and regional, and their own) interests demanded. A train derailed and folks thought it'd be easier to bury it (as in put enough dirt on it to hide it) than to report it and face whatever consequences. Russia annexed Crimea, China does nasty things in Tibet and thinks very hard about how to make Hong Kong bend its knee. Industrial espionage is encouraged. Dumping too. (Ordering stuff from China is simply too cheap. The cost of international shipping is likely paid by the State.) Just as questionable loans to state-owned enterprises. And there are a lot of those. Not to mention environmental and health concerns. Sure, things are getting better for the average Chinese, but that's _very_ far from a success story.

by learc83 10y ago

utopcell 10y ago

elaborate

jessriedel 10y ago

Who thought this was orchestrated by another other islamist faction in the military? I never heard during any of the coverage that anyone thought the folks behind the coup weren't secular.

learc83 10y ago
Erdogan immediately started referencing a "parallel government" which many commentators took to mean the islamist faction led by Fethullah Gulen. When I was reading coverage during the first few hours of the coup Fethullah Gulen was mentioned repeatedly as the possible orchestrator.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  Hmm, I never heard this until a couple days into the coup, well after it was clear it was unsuccessful. Would be interesting to know what the US intelligence experts actually thought.

simonh 10y ago

> If a secular military coup looked likely to be successful, the west would be ecstatic. What the West wants is a secular, pluralistic, economically and socially secure and stable Turkey under the rule of law. A military government might tick one or two of those boxes in the short term, but the rest (and all of them long term) can only be achieved via democracy.

Pica_soO 10y ago
Thats why china failed big time. Ups, wrong parallel universe.. This tale gets better every time its told.
- pas 10y ago
  China is a very scary socioeconomic engine rushing down the road, and it could slide off the road and crash and burn, and go fucking boom into something rather scary. It's already very bad in certain things. Like freedom of the press (and other civil liberties). Putin's Russia is sort of arriving there with the new communications wiretapping requirements, whereas China has the Golden Shield Firewall operating for the past decade. Russian prosecutors going rouge and openly ally with the mob? A new and scary thing. But we never even heard of Chinese prosecutors doing anything other than what the current state (and regional, and their own) interests demanded. A train derailed and folks thought it'd be easier to bury it (as in put enough dirt on it to hide it) than to report it and face whatever consequences. Russia annexed Crimea, China does nasty things in Tibet and thinks very hard about how to make Hong Kong bend its knee. Industrial espionage is encouraged. Dumping too. (Ordering stuff from China is simply too cheap. The cost of international shipping is likely paid by the State.) Just as questionable loans to state-owned enterprises. And there are a lot of those. Not to mention environmental and health concerns. Sure, things are getting better for the average Chinese, but that's _very_ far from a success story.