5 ms·

UIs though... I haven't worked with a single Java based GUI application that did feel smooth, fast and efficient. I wonder why that is.

pjmlp 10y ago
Because most developers don't care and code everything on the UI thread. Additionally Swing has bad defaults, so it requires effort to make the required set of calls to make them look better. Back in the Sun glory days, there were Sun blogs like Filthy Rich Clients, which lead eventually to a book http://filthyrichclients.org/ http://filthyrichclients.org/. It was a consequence of Sun not getting what it means developing GUIs for the consumer systems, think that their Solaris UIs (SunView, OpenWindows, CDE) weren't that great in that area. So most Java developers stick with the defaults and as such the majority of Java based applications send the wrong message.
- vvanders 10y ago
  Android does a bunch of things to keep you off the UI thread(IO throws an exception, handlers, Async Tasks, etc). You still have to GC at some point and when that happens chances are you're going to drop frames. Unless you're very aware of the garbage you're creating you'll take more than ~5ms which is usually enough to push you over 16ms with the other work that goes on during a frame.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Measure Java performance by how Android works is not a good measure. Dalvik is well known on Java world for having a JIT and GC implementations that worse than what most commercial embedded JVM are capable of. Things have improved with ART, but even there there are quite a few performance improvements that Google could eventually do. Soft real time Java GCs for embedded devices are being used in ground station controls of missiles and a couple of US Navy weapon systems. They surely don't want GC glitches in battle situations. The Android team seems to only bother with "good enough" in what concerns Android performance. As a side note, just check how many Android releases are they going through and yet real-audio support isn't quite there. Even Windows Phone has better support for it, and they do have WinRT and .NET on them.
    - bitmapbrother 10y ago
      >Even Windows Phone has better support for it, and they do have WinRT and .NET on them. No they don't. Point me to one windows phone audio app that has low latency audio.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Well there are these sources from Microsoft: https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/05/15/real-time-audio-in-windows-store-and-windows-phone-apps/ https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/05/15/real-time-... https://rtaudiowsapps.codeplex.com/ https://rtaudiowsapps.codeplex.com/ https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/3-548 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/3-548 And I just found this, but not sure how good it fares. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/audio-meter/9wzdncrdkgt7 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/audio-meter/9wzdn...
        bitmapbrother 10y ago
        You linked to an app that measures audio db levels. There are no low latency audio / music apps because windows phone isn't very good at it.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Or maybe because no one capable of writing such applications wants to target 1% market share? Sometimes being good at something isn't enough.
        bitmapbrother 10y ago
        I wonder if BB users also use that excuse.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        I didn't use it as an excuse. I am no real time audio expert, but as someone that does work on Windows, I saw the information I have posted back when it went live. So it is possible, that in spite of the support being there, no one cares about it due to the sad state of the Windows Phone market and not because they suck. Or I suck at understanding how real time audio is supposed to work and the support isn't really there in spite of what Microsoft says.
merb 10y ago
do you use or know cyberduck?

pjmlp 10y ago

Because most developers don't care and code everything on the UI thread. Additionally Swing has bad defaults, so it requires effort to make the required set of calls to make them look better. Back in the Sun glory days, there were Sun blogs like Filthy Rich Clients, which lead eventually to a book http://filthyrichclients.org/ http://filthyrichclients.org/. It was a consequence of Sun not getting what it means developing GUIs for the consumer systems, think that their Solaris UIs (SunView, OpenWindows, CDE) weren't that great in that area. So most Java developers stick with the defaults and as such the majority of Java based applications send the wrong message.

vvanders 10y ago
Android does a bunch of things to keep you off the UI thread(IO throws an exception, handlers, Async Tasks, etc). You still have to GC at some point and when that happens chances are you're going to drop frames. Unless you're very aware of the garbage you're creating you'll take more than ~5ms which is usually enough to push you over 16ms with the other work that goes on during a frame.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Measure Java performance by how Android works is not a good measure. Dalvik is well known on Java world for having a JIT and GC implementations that worse than what most commercial embedded JVM are capable of. Things have improved with ART, but even there there are quite a few performance improvements that Google could eventually do. Soft real time Java GCs for embedded devices are being used in ground station controls of missiles and a couple of US Navy weapon systems. They surely don't want GC glitches in battle situations. The Android team seems to only bother with "good enough" in what concerns Android performance. As a side note, just check how many Android releases are they going through and yet real-audio support isn't quite there. Even Windows Phone has better support for it, and they do have WinRT and .NET on them.
  - bitmapbrother 10y ago
    >Even Windows Phone has better support for it, and they do have WinRT and .NET on them. No they don't. Point me to one windows phone audio app that has low latency audio.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Well there are these sources from Microsoft: https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/05/15/real-time-audio-in-windows-store-and-windows-phone-apps/ https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/05/15/real-time-... https://rtaudiowsapps.codeplex.com/ https://rtaudiowsapps.codeplex.com/ https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/3-548 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/3-548 And I just found this, but not sure how good it fares. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/audio-meter/9wzdncrdkgt7 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/audio-meter/9wzdn...
      - bitmapbrother 10y ago
        You linked to an app that measures audio db levels. There are no low latency audio / music apps because windows phone isn't very good at it.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Or maybe because no one capable of writing such applications wants to target 1% market share? Sometimes being good at something isn't enough.
        bitmapbrother 10y ago
        I wonder if BB users also use that excuse.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        I didn't use it as an excuse. I am no real time audio expert, but as someone that does work on Windows, I saw the information I have posted back when it went live. So it is possible, that in spite of the support being there, no one cares about it due to the sad state of the Windows Phone market and not because they suck. Or I suck at understanding how real time audio is supposed to work and the support isn't really there in spite of what Microsoft says.

merb 10y ago

do you use or know cyberduck?