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So why don't people call it as it? Anything that has to do with foreign politics always sounds like propaganda to me or some weird sense of moral superiority.
by vikiomega9 10y ago
So why don't people call it as it? Anything that has to do with foreign politics always sounds like propaganda to me or some weird sense of moral superiority.
- mikeash 10y agoBecause it works to sway the masses. If you think you should take some action, telling your people that it's moral will help get support for it. If you think some other country shouldn't take some action, telling their people it's immoral will hurt support.
- dTal 10y agoSounds like there'd be a fair amount of morality in international politics, if democracy were given a chance instead of unilateral action by shady oligarchs with psychopathic ideas about how "it's a dog-eat-dog world".
- mikeash 10y agoI object to calling that psychopathic. Acknowledging the nature of reality is never wrong. It would only be psychopathic if you not only acknowledged it, but celebrated it.
- Symmetry 10y ago"The nature of reality" is that one must act in a certian way? You're confusing the normative with the descriptive.
- mikeash 10y agoI'm saying that countries do act this way. I'm also saying that countries which don't tend to lose out to those that do. That's not the same as saying that countries must act this way, it merely explains why they all do.
- Symmetry 10y agoYou're saying that they do act that way but you're also objecting to calling leaders who act that way psychopathic. Choosing to do what is necessary for the continued victory of one's country even to the extent of assisting genocide is psychopathic. Good people, even if they "recognize the nature of reality" should allow themselves to be defeated rather than assist in genocide.
- mikeash 10y agoNo, I object to calling the idea that countries act this way psychopathic. Call the leaders whatever names you want, I'm not fond of any of them. But I saw that "psychopathic ideas" business as being aimed straight at me, not merely the people involved in international relations.
- Symmetry 10y agoOk. I interpreted the remark differently but I think both interpretations are credible.
- dTal 10y agoI'm sorry, I did not intend a personal slight. I understand that world leaders really do think like this, and I even think I somewhat understand why; I just think it's not an acceptable state of affairs because it's a horrible way to relate to the rest of the world, and what's worse it doesn't even match up to how the actual citizens of those countries feel. I would love to think that if we asked regular people their opinion more instead of isolating our leaders in ivory towers away from normal daily life and feeding them scary realpolitik stories, we'd have a higher-trust global society, but (as you say) possibly this only works if everyone does it...
- vikiomega9 10y agoI feel like that might not be true. Morality is relative and by extension the democracy it embodies.