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Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

39 points by tomreece 10y ago

dudul 10y ago
You did nothing wrong. Keep doing what you are doing, spend some time interviewing, it's a great skill to develop. Don't feel like you're cheating on your wife, your current employer is not your wife. If at any point, they realize that they are better off without you they'll sack you, period. If the companies you interview with really want you they'll make it worth your while. They'll adjust their offer to compensate for all the items you listed, otherwise, they just accept the fact that you can walk at any time.
- byoung2 10y ago
  Excellent point about negotiating. Definitely mention that you will take a hit with housing and taxes if you move, and have them add $12k to the offer. That is peanuts compared to the total offer amount.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Funny: the recruiter was annoyed at his declination email - a phone call was apparently expected. But how does a company decline? "We do not see a fit at this time, but we'll keep your resume on file". Lol
- cwyers 10y ago
  That's best-case scenario, too.
- knowaveragejoe 10y ago
  That's giving them too much credit. Most companies don't even respond. That's "industry standard", and is probably responsible for untold amounts of stress and lost productivity(on the part of the jobseeker). No idea how that came to be, but it'd be a dream come true if it were the other way around.
- altcognito 10y ago
  The recruiter was upset he didn't get a chance to browbeat him into changing his mind. The author should stick up for himself because recruiters are not highly incentivized to care about your happiness. If you don't upset future business, that's all that matters to them.
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    Or the recruiter had tools at his disposal he wasn't even able to employ against a brick-wall "no". The recruiter didn't even have the chance to address the applicant's concerns, which is a bummer. Maybe they liked the applicant so much the recruiter got told "do whatever it takes" and he didn't even get a chance?
- callesgg 10y ago
  The fact that other people are dicks, does not justify you being a dick.
alekratz 10y ago
It sounds like the poster is happy with his position in life, and he's just figuring that out. I think favorite piece of wisdom that can be applied to this post is to listen to your gut when it tells you not to do something; not the other way around. If you're in a position in life where you're happy, try to coast for a while and enjoy stability.
- chrisabrams 10y ago
  I didn't gather that the author was happy - it sounds like he's quite stressed all the time and over-analyzing everything and yet not considering so many options at the same time. Just doesn't seem like a fun recipe to me.
- csours 10y ago
  I'm in a very similar position to the poster, perhaps even at the same company >.> In very large organizations, a lot of things just suck. My cube-mate told me "csours, we have some problems around here" and I just laughed for 5 minutes. Yes we have some problems around here. I can think of 10 major things we are doing wrong at any one time... But yea, you can just coast for a very long time in the enterprise; it doesn't make you feel good though.
StavrosK 10y ago
I don't really understand this post. The author seems to be doing a lot of handwringing for no reason. Why not just tell the new company "I'm currently employed, so it is unlikely that I would leave my job, but I would be open to it for the right opportunity, if you're still interested"? That way, you both know where you stand, and you have a better negotiating position, since you don't need to take the new job.
- steven777400 10y ago
  This is exactly what I've done in the past. I haven't had any issue. I don't make a big deal out of it, but I do let them know I'm currently happy where I am so, if they decide they are interested in moving forward, they'll have to make it worth my while.
- chrisabrams 10y ago
  I concur - it's like the author never even attempted to get a cost of living adjustment in the offer.
  - tomreece 10y ago
    The offer was 20k more than my base salary already. Asking for even more seemed crazy to me. I have controversial opinions on how much money developers make already, probably stemming from my imposter syndrome. Asking for more money did not make me comfortable. If they had offered, I would have had to reconsider. I expected more of a conversation after I declined, but it didn't happen.
    - nathancahill 10y ago
      > Asking for even more seemed crazy to me Until companies start offering the salary that they are expecting to pay for the position in their initial offer, you're always going to have to ask for more to get it. There are a few startups (Buffer or maybe Zapier?) that are doing this. Offers are very one-sided, the company has all of the information and you have none. By not negotiating a better offer, you're leaving money on the table. It doesn't help that there's a taboo in our society around negotiation and bargaining.
dspillett 10y ago
> felt guilty enough for turning it down after they had spent time and money on me In these cases you should never feel guilty about the time and other resource they spent on the process. If they hadn't made you an offer in the end they certainly wouldn't have felt guilty about the time/money/other you had spent.
- pmyjavec 10y ago
  Very good point, I've spent almost 40 hours of my time for an application only to be told at the final stages I wasn't right for the position. I doubt anyone on the other side lost sleep over it.
  - dspillett 10y ago
    Exactly. It is part of the process that both parties need to accept. If the outlay/risk is too high for the company then it is not the candidate's fault, the candidate does not dictate the interview process.
roflc0ptic 10y ago
The recruiter guilting you is the recruiter acting out their anger that you didn't earn them their $25k or whatever. They get whatever exorbitant cut they do specifically because of the risk that they assume. I backed out of a new job on a Thursday when I was scheduled to start on Monday. Recruiter was super nasty to me. It was unfortunate to back out when I did, but that's when the offer came in, and they were offering me 65k against 93k. That kind of conflict is baked into the relationship. It's not their fault, not exactly, but it's their job to handle rejection with professionalism and grace, not by pouting. Edit: I said "when the offer came in." What I meant was the competing offer that paid ~30k more. Timeline: Company A offers, I accept. I interview at company B. Company B offers me 30k more. I cancel with company A. Hilarity ensues.
- GeneralMayhem 10y ago
  What company couldn't be bothered to put an offer on paper until three days before you were supposed to start, and then had the gall to be upset? Please name and shame, that's completely unacceptable.
  - cdibona 10y ago
    Who accepts an offer and schedules their first day of work without knowing what they will be paid? No one, that's who...
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      Welcome to the world of "at will" mercenaries. I was once offered a job with a start date two weeks in the future, and then I got a call the day before I was set to start which told me I ought not bother showing up the next day, because the position had been cancelled. The job was with American Family Insurance, and instead of starting that new job, I instead called my agent to cancel all my policies with them. So now, I have no reservations whatsoever about accepting a [non-contract] offer and making an appointment to show up for a new job, then continuing to interview right up to my new start date, or even a little while after. If I cancel the day before, the company should simply be glad that I didn't work one day then quit, because then they would have to process payroll and tax forms for the whole year. Scheduling the first day costs me nothing. That's just a deadline for the company to put their written promise of payment for my labor into my hands. If it doesn't show up, neither do I. The company would then receive a call, and I would say that I was unable to start work because I didn't have a signed offer letter. If I get a better offer in the interim, I might accept it, and let the first company know they were outbid. So far, I have only ever skipped a "start work" appointment with Deluxe, and I decided not to show up for work because their recruiter lied to me multiple times, and processed me in to a job description radically different from the one I had been seeking. If you want assurance that I will show up after accepting an offer, give me an actual contract. An "at will" offer letter just says that if I work for you, you will pay me $X, N times per year. Do not fear interviewing while employed. Do not fear it if you are "at will". Do not fear it if you are under contract. The company is not going to sacrifice a single penny of its profits for your personal welfare, so you have to see to your own financial security. You always have to assume that the contract will not be renewed or extended, or that the next all hands meeting will be to fire everyone. Therefore, you owe it to yourself to seek alternate employment at any time, and accept or reject offers in the spirit in which they were given. An "at will" offer could be for any number of days from zero until your retirement target, and that level of uncertain commitment from your employer is not sufficient by itself to generate any level of certain commitment from you. You don't have to put bait on your hook, but your line should always be in the water. And if you catch a fish, you can always throw it back rather than eat it.
tomjen3 10y ago
Rage. Your employer pays your salary, you do your very best work for them. That is all you owe them. If they expect to make a penny more without you, they will. You do not owe them loyalty beyond that. You owe negative loyalty to a recruiter, especially somebody trying to guilt you.
cloudjacker 10y ago
I try to subtly steer the direction of the interview process from within my current companies. But it is fruitless, last time I got responses from other engineers that conduct the interviews like: - "real world problems are not discrete enough to present and solve within 10 minutes" (but the random "average best solution" for a random algorithm question is, and they have 30 minutes to an hour to fumble through it without us telling them they really had 10 minutes) - this is what we do for everyone (and when we find the right candidate that fits our autistic goals and is also sociable enough for our arbitrary culture fit ideals, we won't have any exercise like it in the actual job) I just don't get how there is so much media about how bad the interview process is, on here and linkedin, but nobody has an alternative yet. Is hand waiving it away with "we just dont want false negatives" really the absolute to perpetuate this inefficient process?
3pt14159 10y ago
Just ask for way more money. What would it take for you to get to that more pricey spot? An extra $50k? Just do it. I've seen people get 30 or 50% more on their offer by impressing the hell out of the interviewers. Don't think that the the flight makes you owe them anything. Why do they need to do an in-person interview? I've hired plenty of people out of province with a couple extended Google Hangouts chats as well as code review.
ElijahLynn 10y ago
We rent our brains for money. Brain prostitution. We can seek higher offers, no guilt needed.
- dudul 10y ago
  Exactly. Everybody in this industry needs to shift their mindset. You are not a loyal little employee cherished by your boss, you are a contractor with one customer, period. You do not owe anything to anybody, you are free to go with what is best for you as an individual and a professional.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    True, but... never burn bridges (unless you really would go on unemployment rather than work there - or with them - again).
timwaagh 10y ago
I do not see a real reason why one should be afraid of trying to find a better offer. I do not think it is right to be so emotionally attached to an employer. all they do is give you money to do stuff they don't want to do. It's just business and loyalty should not come into it.
pjc50 10y ago
There was once a company giving out free iPads to anyone who could pass their tech screen interview. This was round about the first release of the iPad, so it was quite a big deal - they were expensive and out of stock at local retailers. I went in, passed the interview, collected my iPad, and at the second round interview had a very strange "so why are you interested in working here?" discussion. I wasn't, I was only there for the iPad.
- tomreece 10y ago
  This made me laugh out loud. You're fearless!
dominotw 10y ago
All my interviews in my past few months have been in this format. 1. Talking to recruiter ( 0-1 hr) 2. InterviewStreet coding challenge ( 2 hrs) 3. Phone Screen - 1 hr 4. Take home coding exercise - 4 hrs So you are spending 8 hrs just to get your resume looked at. Then comes onsite interview which is another day ( assuming you are not flying out). All recruiter did was mass email ppl on linkedin. Spending at most 1 hr on your particular case. You have all the right to say no, its none of their business why. I've had Amazon recruiters not even have the courtesy to email me back when I didn't pass ( assuming) their interviewstreet. They don't even tell you why you got rejected when you don't pass the interview so you don't have to either if you don't want to. Just tell them 'it was difficult decision', if you are feeling particularly generous :D.
- pyb 10y ago
  What country are you in?
  - dominotw 10y ago
    USA
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  I have never received any meaningful feedback from prospective employers about why they declined to advance me through their interviewing process, so I feel no reciprocal obligation to give any feedback about why I didn't advance them through my interviewing process. In fact, if you base it strictly on reciprocity, for some companies, you wouldn't even have to send an e-mail to the recruiter. You could just never contact them again and leave them to wonder. But I consider that behavior to be so beyond the pale in prospective employers that a short, e-mailed note saying "I decline your offer," is the minimum that I would ever do.
nicky0 10y ago
Everyone in this story seems to have acted reasonably. Guy interviews new job, weight up the pros and cons, decided against it.
partisan 10y ago
This post sounds like every interview cycle I've ever gone through. The self doubt during the process, the surprise at their interest, the pleasantness of the new company, and then finally, the hard part: making a decision. Not sure why this is worth even writing about. Also, I wonder about the sensibility of writing about it under your own name when your current employer now knows you are interviewing around.
desireco42 10y ago
You sound like junior guy which probably explain all the drama. Others already pointed out your mistakes in reasoning. However, since you liked this opportunity so much (SF I assume), you could just ask for more money, however much would make things work for you. Explain your reasoning to them and see what they can do.
jowiar 10y ago
Everyone owes it to themselves to test the market once a year. You don't have to take the offer, but the extent to which you consider yourself guilty for doing so is the extent to which your current employer is screwing you. If your current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice before kicking you aside.
- omegaham 10y ago
  > If your current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice before kicking you aside. This right here. The company has no loyalty to you, so why should you have any loyalty to them? I'm very happy where I am right now, but I know that I'm exactly one "pivot" away from getting the axe and having to move to Texas. If a better opportunity comes my way, I'm not going to lose sleep over quitting.
cm3 10y ago
> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers. Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's usually best to not talk about job interviews with any coworker. It's one of those things that people do themselves but hold against you once they know you did. Talk about some job frustration during a company party, only to have it recited as an argument against you during an HR interview. That said, interviewing at places even if you don't have plans to leave is normal and many people do it. It's interview experience and market research in one and it's something your employer may not punish you for, but some do, so keep it private.
- jsprogrammer 10y ago
  Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dudul 10y ago
    You can voice your frustrations and offer ways to improve the organization without volunteering the information that you are interviewing. When it comes to interviews and dealing with my current employer, I have 2 rules: never tell that you are trying to leave, and never accept the counter offer when you give your notice.
ffaaa 10y ago
Post sounds like an book add.
- datamoshr 10y ago
  Comment sounds like you didn't actually read the post. He explicitly says he's against the book. I can't fault someone for trying to earn some credit with Amazon.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ffaaa 10y ago
This looks like an advert for the book.
badmadrad 10y ago
I have been in this situation before where I was flown out and the company low balled me on salary with 5% pay cut despite the cost of living be way higher. My time and energy was wasted. Trust me, companies do the same things all time to prospective employees. Even for a startup, flying someone out and putting them in a hotel for a night is the cost of doing business and the risk you take for finding the right candidates.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  if you didn't tell them how much you want to make, they're going to just guess. and it sounds like they guessed pretty well, if they came within 5% of what you currently make. amateur hour advice like "never be the first one to name a price" is nonsense. just tell them what you want and see if there's a fit, or not. it's how business gets done 99% of the time.
  - badmadrad 10y ago
    I did tell them what I make but I didn't tell them what would make me leave because it usually goes without saying... more money.
    - beachstartup 10y ago
      right, so exactly as i suspected, you didn't tell them how much you want to make. and no, it doesn't go without saying. you need to say it. tell them your requirements. do it without them asking. what if you wanted to buy a car, but the dealer wouldn't tell you the price? what would you do? offer them MORE than what you think the car is worth?
      - chrisabrams 10y ago
        Yes you are correct. Because sometimes companies think its the project, or the location, or the weather, or who knows what. But if its the money, then you gotta say so.
      - 10y ago
jraines 10y ago
I guess I'll be one voice in the other direction -- I agree with the friend: if deep down you know you're just exploring, you should cut it off before the in-person if they are flying you out. Interviewing is stressful for the interviewers, too, and nobody wants to pay $400~ and spend a day of their time, too, for you to have a field trip to update your feel for the market.
kelnos 10y ago
> Maybe I did nothing wrong and am over-analyzing it. Yes, that's exactly it. The recruiter was being a dick by making you feel guilty about declining over email. Even if the recruiter was correct and you should have called, that has no bearing on whether or not you should feel guilty about the process overall. You went through the process, was presented with an offer, and after evaluating the offer against your current circumstances, decided it wasn't a better deal. That's how it's supposed to work. I'd say keep on doing what you're doing. If you find that interviewing periodically is a good use of your time, do it.
JSeymourATL 10y ago
> Maybe there is a better way to explore other opportunities without ending up on a plane. Yes, arrange a Skype/call (30-45 mins) with the actual hiring executive, the guy you'd report to. Have solid questions prepared. Learn some basics about what they are working on, what kinds of problems they need solved, a little about structure and the team. Assuming there's good tonality in the conversation and you're serious about exploring further-- then move forward to meeting in-person.

39 points by tomreece 10y ago

dudul 10y ago

You did nothing wrong. Keep doing what you are doing, spend some time interviewing, it's a great skill to develop. Don't feel like you're cheating on your wife, your current employer is not your wife. If at any point, they realize that they are better off without you they'll sack you, period. If the companies you interview with really want you they'll make it worth your while. They'll adjust their offer to compensate for all the items you listed, otherwise, they just accept the fact that you can walk at any time.

byoung2 10y ago
Excellent point about negotiating. Definitely mention that you will take a hit with housing and taxes if you move, and have them add $12k to the offer. That is peanuts compared to the total offer amount.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Funny: the recruiter was annoyed at his declination email - a phone call was apparently expected. But how does a company decline? "We do not see a fit at this time, but we'll keep your resume on file". Lol

cwyers 10y ago
That's best-case scenario, too.
knowaveragejoe 10y ago
That's giving them too much credit. Most companies don't even respond. That's "industry standard", and is probably responsible for untold amounts of stress and lost productivity(on the part of the jobseeker). No idea how that came to be, but it'd be a dream come true if it were the other way around.
altcognito 10y ago
The recruiter was upset he didn't get a chance to browbeat him into changing his mind. The author should stick up for himself because recruiters are not highly incentivized to care about your happiness. If you don't upset future business, that's all that matters to them.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  Or the recruiter had tools at his disposal he wasn't even able to employ against a brick-wall "no". The recruiter didn't even have the chance to address the applicant's concerns, which is a bummer. Maybe they liked the applicant so much the recruiter got told "do whatever it takes" and he didn't even get a chance?
callesgg 10y ago
The fact that other people are dicks, does not justify you being a dick.

alekratz 10y ago

It sounds like the poster is happy with his position in life, and he's just figuring that out. I think favorite piece of wisdom that can be applied to this post is to listen to your gut when it tells you not to do something; not the other way around. If you're in a position in life where you're happy, try to coast for a while and enjoy stability.

chrisabrams 10y ago
I didn't gather that the author was happy - it sounds like he's quite stressed all the time and over-analyzing everything and yet not considering so many options at the same time. Just doesn't seem like a fun recipe to me.
csours 10y ago
I'm in a very similar position to the poster, perhaps even at the same company >.> In very large organizations, a lot of things just suck. My cube-mate told me "csours, we have some problems around here" and I just laughed for 5 minutes. Yes we have some problems around here. I can think of 10 major things we are doing wrong at any one time... But yea, you can just coast for a very long time in the enterprise; it doesn't make you feel good though.

StavrosK 10y ago

I don't really understand this post. The author seems to be doing a lot of handwringing for no reason. Why not just tell the new company "I'm currently employed, so it is unlikely that I would leave my job, but I would be open to it for the right opportunity, if you're still interested"? That way, you both know where you stand, and you have a better negotiating position, since you don't need to take the new job.

steven777400 10y ago
This is exactly what I've done in the past. I haven't had any issue. I don't make a big deal out of it, but I do let them know I'm currently happy where I am so, if they decide they are interested in moving forward, they'll have to make it worth my while.
chrisabrams 10y ago
I concur - it's like the author never even attempted to get a cost of living adjustment in the offer.
- tomreece 10y ago
  The offer was 20k more than my base salary already. Asking for even more seemed crazy to me. I have controversial opinions on how much money developers make already, probably stemming from my imposter syndrome. Asking for more money did not make me comfortable. If they had offered, I would have had to reconsider. I expected more of a conversation after I declined, but it didn't happen.
  - nathancahill 10y ago
    > Asking for even more seemed crazy to me Until companies start offering the salary that they are expecting to pay for the position in their initial offer, you're always going to have to ask for more to get it. There are a few startups (Buffer or maybe Zapier?) that are doing this. Offers are very one-sided, the company has all of the information and you have none. By not negotiating a better offer, you're leaving money on the table. It doesn't help that there's a taboo in our society around negotiation and bargaining.

dspillett 10y ago

> felt guilty enough for turning it down after they had spent time and money on me In these cases you should never feel guilty about the time and other resource they spent on the process. If they hadn't made you an offer in the end they certainly wouldn't have felt guilty about the time/money/other you had spent.

pmyjavec 10y ago
Very good point, I've spent almost 40 hours of my time for an application only to be told at the final stages I wasn't right for the position. I doubt anyone on the other side lost sleep over it.
- dspillett 10y ago
  Exactly. It is part of the process that both parties need to accept. If the outlay/risk is too high for the company then it is not the candidate's fault, the candidate does not dictate the interview process.

roflc0ptic 10y ago

The recruiter guilting you is the recruiter acting out their anger that you didn't earn them their $25k or whatever. They get whatever exorbitant cut they do specifically because of the risk that they assume. I backed out of a new job on a Thursday when I was scheduled to start on Monday. Recruiter was super nasty to me. It was unfortunate to back out when I did, but that's when the offer came in, and they were offering me 65k against 93k. That kind of conflict is baked into the relationship. It's not their fault, not exactly, but it's their job to handle rejection with professionalism and grace, not by pouting. Edit: I said "when the offer came in." What I meant was the competing offer that paid ~30k more. Timeline: Company A offers, I accept. I interview at company B. Company B offers me 30k more. I cancel with company A. Hilarity ensues.

GeneralMayhem 10y ago
What company couldn't be bothered to put an offer on paper until three days before you were supposed to start, and then had the gall to be upset? Please name and shame, that's completely unacceptable.
- cdibona 10y ago
  Who accepts an offer and schedules their first day of work without knowing what they will be paid? No one, that's who...
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    Welcome to the world of "at will" mercenaries. I was once offered a job with a start date two weeks in the future, and then I got a call the day before I was set to start which told me I ought not bother showing up the next day, because the position had been cancelled. The job was with American Family Insurance, and instead of starting that new job, I instead called my agent to cancel all my policies with them. So now, I have no reservations whatsoever about accepting a [non-contract] offer and making an appointment to show up for a new job, then continuing to interview right up to my new start date, or even a little while after. If I cancel the day before, the company should simply be glad that I didn't work one day then quit, because then they would have to process payroll and tax forms for the whole year. Scheduling the first day costs me nothing. That's just a deadline for the company to put their written promise of payment for my labor into my hands. If it doesn't show up, neither do I. The company would then receive a call, and I would say that I was unable to start work because I didn't have a signed offer letter. If I get a better offer in the interim, I might accept it, and let the first company know they were outbid. So far, I have only ever skipped a "start work" appointment with Deluxe, and I decided not to show up for work because their recruiter lied to me multiple times, and processed me in to a job description radically different from the one I had been seeking. If you want assurance that I will show up after accepting an offer, give me an actual contract. An "at will" offer letter just says that if I work for you, you will pay me $X, N times per year. Do not fear interviewing while employed. Do not fear it if you are "at will". Do not fear it if you are under contract. The company is not going to sacrifice a single penny of its profits for your personal welfare, so you have to see to your own financial security. You always have to assume that the contract will not be renewed or extended, or that the next all hands meeting will be to fire everyone. Therefore, you owe it to yourself to seek alternate employment at any time, and accept or reject offers in the spirit in which they were given. An "at will" offer could be for any number of days from zero until your retirement target, and that level of uncertain commitment from your employer is not sufficient by itself to generate any level of certain commitment from you. You don't have to put bait on your hook, but your line should always be in the water. And if you catch a fish, you can always throw it back rather than eat it.

tomjen3 10y ago

Rage. Your employer pays your salary, you do your very best work for them. That is all you owe them. If they expect to make a penny more without you, they will. You do not owe them loyalty beyond that. You owe negative loyalty to a recruiter, especially somebody trying to guilt you.

cloudjacker 10y ago

I try to subtly steer the direction of the interview process from within my current companies. But it is fruitless, last time I got responses from other engineers that conduct the interviews like: - "real world problems are not discrete enough to present and solve within 10 minutes" (but the random "average best solution" for a random algorithm question is, and they have 30 minutes to an hour to fumble through it without us telling them they really had 10 minutes) - this is what we do for everyone (and when we find the right candidate that fits our autistic goals and is also sociable enough for our arbitrary culture fit ideals, we won't have any exercise like it in the actual job) I just don't get how there is so much media about how bad the interview process is, on here and linkedin, but nobody has an alternative yet. Is hand waiving it away with "we just dont want false negatives" really the absolute to perpetuate this inefficient process?

3pt14159 10y ago

Just ask for way more money. What would it take for you to get to that more pricey spot? An extra $50k? Just do it. I've seen people get 30 or 50% more on their offer by impressing the hell out of the interviewers. Don't think that the the flight makes you owe them anything. Why do they need to do an in-person interview? I've hired plenty of people out of province with a couple extended Google Hangouts chats as well as code review.

ElijahLynn 10y ago

We rent our brains for money. Brain prostitution. We can seek higher offers, no guilt needed.

dudul 10y ago
Exactly. Everybody in this industry needs to shift their mindset. You are not a loyal little employee cherished by your boss, you are a contractor with one customer, period. You do not owe anything to anybody, you are free to go with what is best for you as an individual and a professional.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  True, but... never burn bridges (unless you really would go on unemployment rather than work there - or with them - again).

timwaagh 10y ago

I do not see a real reason why one should be afraid of trying to find a better offer. I do not think it is right to be so emotionally attached to an employer. all they do is give you money to do stuff they don't want to do. It's just business and loyalty should not come into it.

pjc50 10y ago

There was once a company giving out free iPads to anyone who could pass their tech screen interview. This was round about the first release of the iPad, so it was quite a big deal - they were expensive and out of stock at local retailers. I went in, passed the interview, collected my iPad, and at the second round interview had a very strange "so why are you interested in working here?" discussion. I wasn't, I was only there for the iPad.

tomreece 10y ago
This made me laugh out loud. You're fearless!

dominotw 10y ago

All my interviews in my past few months have been in this format. 1. Talking to recruiter ( 0-1 hr) 2. InterviewStreet coding challenge ( 2 hrs) 3. Phone Screen - 1 hr 4. Take home coding exercise - 4 hrs So you are spending 8 hrs just to get your resume looked at. Then comes onsite interview which is another day ( assuming you are not flying out). All recruiter did was mass email ppl on linkedin. Spending at most 1 hr on your particular case. You have all the right to say no, its none of their business why. I've had Amazon recruiters not even have the courtesy to email me back when I didn't pass ( assuming) their interviewstreet. They don't even tell you why you got rejected when you don't pass the interview so you don't have to either if you don't want to. Just tell them 'it was difficult decision', if you are feeling particularly generous :D.

pyb 10y ago
What country are you in?
- dominotw 10y ago
  USA
logfromblammo 10y ago
I have never received any meaningful feedback from prospective employers about why they declined to advance me through their interviewing process, so I feel no reciprocal obligation to give any feedback about why I didn't advance them through my interviewing process. In fact, if you base it strictly on reciprocity, for some companies, you wouldn't even have to send an e-mail to the recruiter. You could just never contact them again and leave them to wonder. But I consider that behavior to be so beyond the pale in prospective employers that a short, e-mailed note saying "I decline your offer," is the minimum that I would ever do.

nicky0 10y ago

Everyone in this story seems to have acted reasonably. Guy interviews new job, weight up the pros and cons, decided against it.

partisan 10y ago

This post sounds like every interview cycle I've ever gone through. The self doubt during the process, the surprise at their interest, the pleasantness of the new company, and then finally, the hard part: making a decision. Not sure why this is worth even writing about. Also, I wonder about the sensibility of writing about it under your own name when your current employer now knows you are interviewing around.

desireco42 10y ago

You sound like junior guy which probably explain all the drama. Others already pointed out your mistakes in reasoning. However, since you liked this opportunity so much (SF I assume), you could just ask for more money, however much would make things work for you. Explain your reasoning to them and see what they can do.

jowiar 10y ago

Everyone owes it to themselves to test the market once a year. You don't have to take the offer, but the extent to which you consider yourself guilty for doing so is the extent to which your current employer is screwing you. If your current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice before kicking you aside.

omegaham 10y ago
> If your current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice before kicking you aside. This right here. The company has no loyalty to you, so why should you have any loyalty to them? I'm very happy where I am right now, but I know that I'm exactly one "pivot" away from getting the axe and having to move to Texas. If a better opportunity comes my way, I'm not going to lose sleep over quitting.

cm3 10y ago

> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers. Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's usually best to not talk about job interviews with any coworker. It's one of those things that people do themselves but hold against you once they know you did. Talk about some job frustration during a company party, only to have it recited as an argument against you during an HR interview. That said, interviewing at places even if you don't have plans to leave is normal and many people do it. It's interview experience and market research in one and it's something your employer may not punish you for, but some do, so keep it private.

jsprogrammer 10y ago
Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dudul 10y ago
  You can voice your frustrations and offer ways to improve the organization without volunteering the information that you are interviewing. When it comes to interviews and dealing with my current employer, I have 2 rules: never tell that you are trying to leave, and never accept the counter offer when you give your notice.

ffaaa 10y ago

Post sounds like an book add.

datamoshr 10y ago
Comment sounds like you didn't actually read the post. He explicitly says he's against the book. I can't fault someone for trying to earn some credit with Amazon.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ffaaa 10y ago

This looks like an advert for the book.

badmadrad 10y ago

I have been in this situation before where I was flown out and the company low balled me on salary with 5% pay cut despite the cost of living be way higher. My time and energy was wasted. Trust me, companies do the same things all time to prospective employees. Even for a startup, flying someone out and putting them in a hotel for a night is the cost of doing business and the risk you take for finding the right candidates.

beachstartup 10y ago
if you didn't tell them how much you want to make, they're going to just guess. and it sounds like they guessed pretty well, if they came within 5% of what you currently make. amateur hour advice like "never be the first one to name a price" is nonsense. just tell them what you want and see if there's a fit, or not. it's how business gets done 99% of the time.
- badmadrad 10y ago
  I did tell them what I make but I didn't tell them what would make me leave because it usually goes without saying... more money.
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    right, so exactly as i suspected, you didn't tell them how much you want to make. and no, it doesn't go without saying. you need to say it. tell them your requirements. do it without them asking. what if you wanted to buy a car, but the dealer wouldn't tell you the price? what would you do? offer them MORE than what you think the car is worth?
    - chrisabrams 10y ago
      Yes you are correct. Because sometimes companies think its the project, or the location, or the weather, or who knows what. But if its the money, then you gotta say so.
    - 10y ago

jraines 10y ago

I guess I'll be one voice in the other direction -- I agree with the friend: if deep down you know you're just exploring, you should cut it off before the in-person if they are flying you out. Interviewing is stressful for the interviewers, too, and nobody wants to pay $400~ and spend a day of their time, too, for you to have a field trip to update your feel for the market.

kelnos 10y ago

> Maybe I did nothing wrong and am over-analyzing it. Yes, that's exactly it. The recruiter was being a dick by making you feel guilty about declining over email. Even if the recruiter was correct and you should have called, that has no bearing on whether or not you should feel guilty about the process overall. You went through the process, was presented with an offer, and after evaluating the offer against your current circumstances, decided it wasn't a better deal. That's how it's supposed to work. I'd say keep on doing what you're doing. If you find that interviewing periodically is a good use of your time, do it.

JSeymourATL 10y ago

> Maybe there is a better way to explore other opportunities without ending up on a plane. Yes, arrange a Skype/call (30-45 mins) with the actual hiring executive, the guy you'd report to. Have solid questions prepared. Learn some basics about what they are working on, what kinds of problems they need solved, a little about structure and the team. Assuming there's good tonality in the conversation and you're serious about exploring further-- then move forward to meeting in-person.