7 ms·

Until the more senior member quits because they are wasting the vast majority of their time answering questions that could have been answered by just trying for

by tubs 10y ago

Until the more senior member quits because they are wasting the vast majority of their time answering questions that could have been answered by just trying for more than 30seconds after hitting an obstacle...

bluesnowmonkey 10y ago
More likely in my experience, the senior member feels valuable for being able to answer questions and help others.
- dozzie 10y ago
  Not after twentieth question of similar construction and similarly easy to be answered by the one who asked if he actually read the friggin' docs. Seniors like to help learn, not to be used as a walking manual.
  - zamalek 10y ago
    When it's the first hit on Google you start feeling as though you are doing other peoples' work for them. Luckily I now have a fantastic manager: she aggressively defends the time of all her team members. Being a wizard developer also requires a wizard manager that the developers can trust completely.
    - JoshTriplett 10y ago
      While I do sometimes have people ask questions that I can easily find the answer to, I rarely have people ask questions that they can easily find the answer to. Sometimes, it's the first search result for a term they didn't happen to know, for instance, and mentioning that term helps them. (Also consider the concepts of "inferential distance" and "illusion of transparency".) And even the concept of "search for the error message" is a pattern someone needs to learn, once. Ideally it's one they'd learn very early on when learning. But I've found that very few people talk about or provide guidance in the processes of learning themselves. Which is why I'm glad that people write down advice like the page tweeted here.
      - ricksplat 10y ago
        > it's the first search result for a term they didn't happen to know > even the concept of "search for the error message" is a pattern someone needs to learn I suppose if we're talking about a graduate or intern this is okay, but when you have somebody that supposedly has a few years experience this is just infuriating. There is also the point that you shouldn't be getting a graduate/intern to be doing work they haven't the capability to google the terms of ...
        Sir_Substance 10y ago
        >but when you have somebody that supposedly has a few years experience this is just infuriating. You know how sometimes programmers on Hacker news talk about toxic team mates who are hard to work with and bog the whole team down through arrogance? Becoming furious when someone asks you a question and truly wishing they'd waste half a day deriving it from first principals themselves rather than just asking you and having an answer in 30 seconds makes you one of those toxic team mates. Modern software development is a team game. The average speed of the team is what matters, not your personal speed.
        JoshTriplett 10y ago
        And it's great to have a management chain that recognizes this: it's hard to find people who specifically go out of their way to build up a team around them, so recognize and reward those people highly. Given the choice, I don't want a "10x" programmer who works alone or only wants to work with other "10x" programmers. I want a 2x programmer who turns everyone around them into a 2x programmer while becoming a 4x programmer, and who then turns all those 2x programmers into 4x programmers while becoming an 8x programmer, and whose newly minted 2x programmers turn everyone around them into 2x programmers while becoming 4x programmers.
        ricksplat 10y ago
        Sir, I have worked with many a toxic team-mate who did nothing but wander around the office, making noise, and getting other people to do their work. Because they didn't do their work themselves they didn't have ownership of it, and it simply "didn't work" and when something inevitably went wrong with it others had to sort it out because it's the team that matters, not blaming an individual. This slowed the overall velocity of the team, despite our best intentions in giving these guys a dig out. I really see no need to smear me for having a countering opinion.
  - xentronium 10y ago
    I think you're right when it comes to basic questions (like "how to do XXX in rails"). However, in my practice, 90% of the obstacles are not concerned with how to do something in the framework/language of choice, but rather "how do we do XXX in our code?" (state machines, search, billing, reporting, etc). These questions can be answered by digging into code and understanding the logic, however, it's better if someone senior explains how and why they do things the way they do, clarifies rationale.
  - engi_nerd 10y ago
    As a senior level engineer myself, I always say, "I want to do my part, and part of that is to help you do yours better." As long as someone isn't being willfully ignorant, I'm more than happy to help them, as them doing their job better helps me do mine better.
greyman 10y ago
Never happened in my company.
JoshTriplett 10y ago
You're demonstrating why people become afraid to ask questions, and stop doing so even when they should. I'd much rather have someone ask when they get stuck, or even if they're kinda stuck. If someone happens to ask me a question that's easily found via poking around a bit more, I'll show them how they could have found the answer, and then they'll have learned two things: the thing they wanted to know and a new pattern for solving problems. As a result, I rapidly find myself surrounded by people who ask smarter and smarter questions, and who can solve harder and harder problems. And I love that result.
- ricksplat 10y ago
  What I would prefer, is somebody who tries to figure it out themselves, even if it takes more time ... just maybe I don't have the answers and would like somebody to give me information for a change rather than just take take take ...
  - collyw 10y ago
    I think there is a balance somewhere.
    - msl09 10y ago
      I once talked to a teacher about that problem. He told me that most of the time it's hard to tell what is the right balance between giving the answer or pointing towards the answer, if you do it too early you kill the opportunity for some one to improve their knowledge acquisition process or simply their cognitive ability to reason about a complex subject(or more often, a subject they are not familiar with). However, if you intervene too late you can make a student go on his way for too looking for an answer that's too complex(for the time frame given to solve the problem) or that's in wrong direction(like trying to optimize a small part of a project that's not all that important) or even more commonly, the student can remain oblivious regarding a shortcut that can make his life a lot easier. I always think of those problems when dealing with a new intern and I'm still unsure on how to deal with it, but one thing I'm starting to understand is that different people have different personalities(that are constantly changing), so they require different approaches at different moments
nul_byte 10y ago
As someone senior myself, I really don't mind the easy to answer, quick questions. It's when people dump real time sinks onto me that will cause me irritation, as I then need to manage my time and realign all my own pending tasks.
norswap 10y ago
Parade: always ask "what have you tried?" first. Then it's acceptable to just give just a direction (the simplest of which is "try googling for it") and to tell them to come back when they've tried if the problem persists.
- mooreds 10y ago
  See also, rubber duck problem solving: https://blog.codinghorror.com/rubber-duck-problem-solving/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/rubber-duck-problem-solving/
- blowski 10y ago
  I found this the most useful thing about StackOverflow - it taught me how to both ask and answer questions more effectively. Bad: > "I have an error. What do I do?" Better: > "I have this error: {BLAH}. What do I do?" Best: > "I'm trying to do X. I have this error: {BLAH}. I read the documentation and tried doing Y, but it didn't fix it. How I can I do X?" Similarly, I try to avoid giving answers that are just "change this line to x". You're just a code-fixing machine into which you pump questions and answers are spat out. Nobody learns anything that way, and you're going to answer the same question over and over again, and get annoyed.
  - S4M 10y ago
    It happened to me as well, and now I think that half of the times I am asking something on StackOverflow, I end up finding the answer myself while writing the question.
corecoder 10y ago
I really enjoy environments in which everyone feels safe asking dumb questions; if I have a question and there's someone able to answer, I ask. I like answering questions, especially when this leads to someone's growth; it's a satisfaction to me when the junior goes from newbie questions to more and more advanced ones. But, even if I disliked answering questions, I'd still very much prefer answering questions than having to clean after a junior that didn't dare to ask a question.
dwightgunning 10y ago
Assuming your company values an aptitude for learning when it makes a hire (at all developer levels), then you should be in good shape and this won't ever be a problem. Note also that there's a subtle difference between senior devs and experienced jerks.
taeric 10y ago
The correct answer isn't always the end result. Instead, make your answer where you sit with them on the "try" for that thirty seconds. Obviously, you could have someone that will always ask and not try. My gut, though, is that spending that thirty seconds just a couple of times will save you hours of future work.

by tubs 10y ago

bluesnowmonkey 10y ago

More likely in my experience, the senior member feels valuable for being able to answer questions and help others.

dozzie 10y ago
Not after twentieth question of similar construction and similarly easy to be answered by the one who asked if he actually read the friggin' docs. Seniors like to help learn, not to be used as a walking manual.
- zamalek 10y ago
  When it's the first hit on Google you start feeling as though you are doing other peoples' work for them. Luckily I now have a fantastic manager: she aggressively defends the time of all her team members. Being a wizard developer also requires a wizard manager that the developers can trust completely.
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    While I do sometimes have people ask questions that I can easily find the answer to, I rarely have people ask questions that they can easily find the answer to. Sometimes, it's the first search result for a term they didn't happen to know, for instance, and mentioning that term helps them. (Also consider the concepts of "inferential distance" and "illusion of transparency".) And even the concept of "search for the error message" is a pattern someone needs to learn, once. Ideally it's one they'd learn very early on when learning. But I've found that very few people talk about or provide guidance in the processes of learning themselves. Which is why I'm glad that people write down advice like the page tweeted here.
    - ricksplat 10y ago
      > it's the first search result for a term they didn't happen to know > even the concept of "search for the error message" is a pattern someone needs to learn I suppose if we're talking about a graduate or intern this is okay, but when you have somebody that supposedly has a few years experience this is just infuriating. There is also the point that you shouldn't be getting a graduate/intern to be doing work they haven't the capability to google the terms of ...
      - Sir_Substance 10y ago
        >but when you have somebody that supposedly has a few years experience this is just infuriating. You know how sometimes programmers on Hacker news talk about toxic team mates who are hard to work with and bog the whole team down through arrogance? Becoming furious when someone asks you a question and truly wishing they'd waste half a day deriving it from first principals themselves rather than just asking you and having an answer in 30 seconds makes you one of those toxic team mates. Modern software development is a team game. The average speed of the team is what matters, not your personal speed.
        JoshTriplett 10y ago
        And it's great to have a management chain that recognizes this: it's hard to find people who specifically go out of their way to build up a team around them, so recognize and reward those people highly. Given the choice, I don't want a "10x" programmer who works alone or only wants to work with other "10x" programmers. I want a 2x programmer who turns everyone around them into a 2x programmer while becoming a 4x programmer, and who then turns all those 2x programmers into 4x programmers while becoming an 8x programmer, and whose newly minted 2x programmers turn everyone around them into 2x programmers while becoming 4x programmers.
        ricksplat 10y ago
        Sir, I have worked with many a toxic team-mate who did nothing but wander around the office, making noise, and getting other people to do their work. Because they didn't do their work themselves they didn't have ownership of it, and it simply "didn't work" and when something inevitably went wrong with it others had to sort it out because it's the team that matters, not blaming an individual. This slowed the overall velocity of the team, despite our best intentions in giving these guys a dig out. I really see no need to smear me for having a countering opinion.
- xentronium 10y ago
  I think you're right when it comes to basic questions (like "how to do XXX in rails"). However, in my practice, 90% of the obstacles are not concerned with how to do something in the framework/language of choice, but rather "how do we do XXX in our code?" (state machines, search, billing, reporting, etc). These questions can be answered by digging into code and understanding the logic, however, it's better if someone senior explains how and why they do things the way they do, clarifies rationale.
- engi_nerd 10y ago
  As a senior level engineer myself, I always say, "I want to do my part, and part of that is to help you do yours better." As long as someone isn't being willfully ignorant, I'm more than happy to help them, as them doing their job better helps me do mine better.

greyman 10y ago

Never happened in my company.

JoshTriplett 10y ago

You're demonstrating why people become afraid to ask questions, and stop doing so even when they should. I'd much rather have someone ask when they get stuck, or even if they're kinda stuck. If someone happens to ask me a question that's easily found via poking around a bit more, I'll show them how they could have found the answer, and then they'll have learned two things: the thing they wanted to know and a new pattern for solving problems. As a result, I rapidly find myself surrounded by people who ask smarter and smarter questions, and who can solve harder and harder problems. And I love that result.

ricksplat 10y ago
What I would prefer, is somebody who tries to figure it out themselves, even if it takes more time ... just maybe I don't have the answers and would like somebody to give me information for a change rather than just take take take ...
- collyw 10y ago
  I think there is a balance somewhere.
  - msl09 10y ago
    I once talked to a teacher about that problem. He told me that most of the time it's hard to tell what is the right balance between giving the answer or pointing towards the answer, if you do it too early you kill the opportunity for some one to improve their knowledge acquisition process or simply their cognitive ability to reason about a complex subject(or more often, a subject they are not familiar with). However, if you intervene too late you can make a student go on his way for too looking for an answer that's too complex(for the time frame given to solve the problem) or that's in wrong direction(like trying to optimize a small part of a project that's not all that important) or even more commonly, the student can remain oblivious regarding a shortcut that can make his life a lot easier. I always think of those problems when dealing with a new intern and I'm still unsure on how to deal with it, but one thing I'm starting to understand is that different people have different personalities(that are constantly changing), so they require different approaches at different moments

nul_byte 10y ago

As someone senior myself, I really don't mind the easy to answer, quick questions. It's when people dump real time sinks onto me that will cause me irritation, as I then need to manage my time and realign all my own pending tasks.

norswap 10y ago

Parade: always ask "what have you tried?" first. Then it's acceptable to just give just a direction (the simplest of which is "try googling for it") and to tell them to come back when they've tried if the problem persists.

mooreds 10y ago
See also, rubber duck problem solving: https://blog.codinghorror.com/rubber-duck-problem-solving/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/rubber-duck-problem-solving/
blowski 10y ago
I found this the most useful thing about StackOverflow - it taught me how to both ask and answer questions more effectively. Bad: > "I have an error. What do I do?" Better: > "I have this error: {BLAH}. What do I do?" Best: > "I'm trying to do X. I have this error: {BLAH}. I read the documentation and tried doing Y, but it didn't fix it. How I can I do X?" Similarly, I try to avoid giving answers that are just "change this line to x". You're just a code-fixing machine into which you pump questions and answers are spat out. Nobody learns anything that way, and you're going to answer the same question over and over again, and get annoyed.
- S4M 10y ago
  It happened to me as well, and now I think that half of the times I am asking something on StackOverflow, I end up finding the answer myself while writing the question.

corecoder 10y ago

I really enjoy environments in which everyone feels safe asking dumb questions; if I have a question and there's someone able to answer, I ask. I like answering questions, especially when this leads to someone's growth; it's a satisfaction to me when the junior goes from newbie questions to more and more advanced ones. But, even if I disliked answering questions, I'd still very much prefer answering questions than having to clean after a junior that didn't dare to ask a question.

dwightgunning 10y ago

Assuming your company values an aptitude for learning when it makes a hire (at all developer levels), then you should be in good shape and this won't ever be a problem. Note also that there's a subtle difference between senior devs and experienced jerks.

taeric 10y ago

The correct answer isn't always the end result. Instead, make your answer where you sit with them on the "try" for that thirty seconds. Obviously, you could have someone that will always ask and not try. My gut, though, is that spending that thirty seconds just a couple of times will save you hours of future work.