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> It won't be enough to demand an early hour for going to bed. If you ban the late evening Internet surfing, you will just swap a dose of evening education for

> It won't be enough to demand an early hour for going to bed. If you ban the late evening Internet surfing, you will just swap a dose of evening education for an idle tossing and turning in bed. You've just chosen to take this statement at face value. I don't believe it. If you get enough exercise, don't drink caffeine in the evening, and don't over-stimulate yourself after 9pm, this doesn't happen, in general. You may see the above restrictions as draconian, but actually, they're normal for a lot of people, and have been for a while. You're attributing a lot to this biological clock, without supporting any of your claims, while these could equally be attributed to bad habits. Don't underestimate the power of training and habit. Now, does society enable these bad habits? Yes! So maybe we should push-back on that, instead of changing school times. It would be useful here to look at what happens in other cultures, with other schedules, although that would make it hard to control for the one change. Your "rubs me the wrong way" argument is silly and immature. So what if it offends you? That doesn't make it wrong. Finally, I say all this after having thought as you did, and getting bemused "why don't you go to bed earlier" responses from my parents. Guess what? When I finally did, I started to feel better in the morning. Duh.

JabavuAdams 17y ago
re:mechanical_fish I've made other replies in this thread, but I think I've just realized the core issue: It's easier and less error-prone to change yourself than to change external organizations. Over the years, this becomes more and more clear, which is perhaps why older people seem more conservative and cynical. Essentially you're arguing: this thing is difficult for me and others to do, so let's change the system. You assume that this will be easier than changing yourself and that it will turn out as you expect. Experience teaches that things almost always seem easier and less complicated at first. Experience teaches that again, and again, massive fuckups start with good intentions. From a coding perspective: think of getting buy-in from various people and departments to change some process or piece of code, versus just doing it yourself. Which will be easier? So, should we avoid all structural change? Of course not. It's just that as you get older you've experienced more of these good intention -> massive fuckup cycles, and become attuned to them. So to summarize, I expect that your plan would have unintended consequences, and that it would be easier and ultimately more effective to just re-train yourself.

JabavuAdams 17y ago

re:mechanical_fish I've made other replies in this thread, but I think I've just realized the core issue: It's easier and less error-prone to change yourself than to change external organizations. Over the years, this becomes more and more clear, which is perhaps why older people seem more conservative and cynical. Essentially you're arguing: this thing is difficult for me and others to do, so let's change the system. You assume that this will be easier than changing yourself and that it will turn out as you expect. Experience teaches that things almost always seem easier and less complicated at first. Experience teaches that again, and again, massive fuckups start with good intentions. From a coding perspective: think of getting buy-in from various people and departments to change some process or piece of code, versus just doing it yourself. Which will be easier? So, should we avoid all structural change? Of course not. It's just that as you get older you've experienced more of these good intention -> massive fuckup cycles, and become attuned to them. So to summarize, I expect that your plan would have unintended consequences, and that it would be easier and ultimately more effective to just re-train yourself.