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>> We've largely decided that declarative langues (html, xaml) are better for building user interfaces. On the other hand, many of us decided the exact opposit

>> We've largely decided that declarative langues (html, xaml) are better for building user interfaces. On the other hand, many of us decided the exact opposite. Check the history ?. Declarative UIs has been around for, what 30-40 years, and they don't seem to be actually gaining any share. They invariably look super-useful and productive when you build "my first app". Typically it is a "ToDo list". Then you start using it to build something larger and then you swear a lot, and eventually realize that the whole premise is flawed, and then you decide never to use declarative UIs again, ever. lol.

Kinnard 10y ago
Haha, that sounds like me. Except I more so swear a lot after developing too many apps using technology that was meant for adding hyperlinking to text documents . . .
Kinnard 10y ago
Could you recommend some alternative UIs?
- carterehsmith 10y ago
  Any component-based UI toolkit will fit the bill. There are many of them, as this is kind of classic approach, I would recommend React. 10 years ago, it was Sencha, DOJO, etc. As for native, every OS provides component-based UI toolkit.
flukus 10y ago
"Check the history ?. Declarative UIs has been around for, what 30-40 years, and they don't seem to be actually gaining any share." Really? Because HTML seems to be by far the most popular environment these days. many are even trying to push it to the desktop. "Then you start using it to build something larger and then you swear a lot, and eventually realize that the whole premise is flawed, and then you decide never to use declarative UIs again, ever. lol." What other abstractions are you using? If it was manipulating things based in jQuery selectors then I'd agree. But I find a combination with an MVVM framework (like knockout) it scales incredibly well.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  I actually hate html+css and other developers I know hate it too. I feel like it's wasting many developer hours. I think one of the reasons its so "popular" is that there's no alternative that is widely supported by browsers. I think it's unlikely that mass end-user adoption can be driven by a substantially better developer experience. However there may be opportunities elsewhere . . .
  - flukus 10y ago
    Sure it's a pain at times. But is there any other tech that makes it so easy to build apps/sites that work on anything from from a widescreen desktop to a smart phone?
    - Kinnard 10y ago
      There isn't one yet and that's the problem.
      - flukus 10y ago
        When/if there is one I'd expect it to share many of the traits that made html+css so successful. In reality I'm expecting html+css to keep evolving and removing most of the pain points. Grids for example: https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/ https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/
        Kinnard 10y ago
        I think css+html has evolved and improved a lot. That's a good example. But I think ultimately everything is being done to extend a legacy technology that was meant to add hyperlinking to texts and nothing more. I think a first-principles re-approach will be so much more powerful and free of the gravity of html+css constraints allowing developers to reach escape velocity.
        flukus 10y ago

Kinnard 10y ago

Haha, that sounds like me. Except I more so swear a lot after developing too many apps using technology that was meant for adding hyperlinking to text documents . . .

Kinnard 10y ago

Could you recommend some alternative UIs?

carterehsmith 10y ago
Any component-based UI toolkit will fit the bill. There are many of them, as this is kind of classic approach, I would recommend React. 10 years ago, it was Sencha, DOJO, etc. As for native, every OS provides component-based UI toolkit.

flukus 10y ago

"Check the history ?. Declarative UIs has been around for, what 30-40 years, and they don't seem to be actually gaining any share." Really? Because HTML seems to be by far the most popular environment these days. many are even trying to push it to the desktop. "Then you start using it to build something larger and then you swear a lot, and eventually realize that the whole premise is flawed, and then you decide never to use declarative UIs again, ever. lol." What other abstractions are you using? If it was manipulating things based in jQuery selectors then I'd agree. But I find a combination with an MVVM framework (like knockout) it scales incredibly well.

Kinnard 10y ago
I actually hate html+css and other developers I know hate it too. I feel like it's wasting many developer hours. I think one of the reasons its so "popular" is that there's no alternative that is widely supported by browsers. I think it's unlikely that mass end-user adoption can be driven by a substantially better developer experience. However there may be opportunities elsewhere . . .
- flukus 10y ago
  Sure it's a pain at times. But is there any other tech that makes it so easy to build apps/sites that work on anything from from a widescreen desktop to a smart phone?
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    There isn't one yet and that's the problem.
    - flukus 10y ago
      When/if there is one I'd expect it to share many of the traits that made html+css so successful. In reality I'm expecting html+css to keep evolving and removing most of the pain points. Grids for example: https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/ https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/
      - Kinnard 10y ago
        I think css+html has evolved and improved a lot. That's a good example. But I think ultimately everything is being done to extend a legacy technology that was meant to add hyperlinking to texts and nothing more. I think a first-principles re-approach will be so much more powerful and free of the gravity of html+css constraints allowing developers to reach escape velocity.
        flukus 10y ago