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I agree with you in theory, but from experience it is extremely hard to achieve when you're actually in that position. Unlike what you say, it does take much l

I agree with you in theory, but from experience it is extremely hard to achieve when you're actually in that position. Unlike what you say, it does take much longer to write great code when you're trying new things every day. Every time you try something new, by definition you're building something that you hadn't planned when you first started. Which means if you really wanted to be perfect you would end up refactoring every day. This is not a small effort in total. You could say you should have prepared for that scenario from the beginning, but I don't think it's a good idea to believe that you can predict the future especially when you're building something that hasn't existed before.

im_down_w_otp 10y ago
In my experience, when you're in the "invention phase" is when it's most critical and beneficial to have and demand more discipline around your output artifacts. Precisely because keeping context and content around your fast iterative decision-making and implementation phases is critical to avoid wasting time on duplicated effort or needlessly repeating mistakes over and over again. Literally every situation I've ever seen in 20 years across all manner of marketplaces and every imaginable stage of development has had the immediate faux-gains made from ignoring spending 10%-20% more time now (to produce something at least coherent, commented, and composable) ultimately overwhelmed by the soon-to-be-immediate costs of having to live with the consequences of the dubious "shortcuts" taken. I agree with you that it's extremely hard to achieve maintaining that kind of discipline when under the gun, but that's a people management and expectations problem, not an engineering effort problem. I'm 100% certain that in any given window of time, no matter how crunchy that crunchtime is, that if my team spends 10-15 out of every 100 man-hours producing a higher-quality "minimally acceptable" artifact that they'll both materially accomplish more in that first 100 hours than if they'd spent all of it hacking together a barely working dumpster-fire in the same window of time, and that it will pay glaringly obvious dividends for their productivity in the next 100 hours after, and the next after that, and so on. Lacking that discipline is neither a necessary condition nor a near or long-term benefit to a prototyping or product development cycle. It's purely a function of leadership, expectations management, and experience. (I'm even giving the benefit of the doubt that what's being done "hasn't existed before", which is overwhelmingly not the case. More typically it's different people and different teams just painfully learning the same hard lessons in parallel, often because there's an assumption/delusion what's being done is a legitimate pioneering effort instead of the probable reality that it's really a minor variation on something else that already has well-established successful models available to learn from and mimic.)
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > I'm 100% certain that in any given window of time, no matter how crunchy that crunchtime is, that if my team spends 10-15 out of every 100 man-hours producing a higher-quality "minimally acceptable" artifact that they'll both materially accomplish more in that first 100 hours than if they'd spent all of it hacking together a barely working dumpster-fire in the same window of time, and that it will pay glaringly obvious dividends for their productivity in the next 100 hours after, and the next after that, and so on The problems is at the very beginning, all (or most) of that code will be thrown away because you really don't know what works. How many cycles of wasted extra 20% effort would it take for you to change your mind?
  - im_down_w_otp 10y ago
    You missed the point. In that same 100 hours, spending 15-20 hours applying best-practices has universally resulted in actually getting more out of that 100 block. The 100 hours spent on the spaghetti mess has always produced less, provided fewer insights, and often exactly nothing that can be soundly iterated on. This is because the friction and pain of technical debt doesn't wait until the end of the 100 hours to create problems. It's biting you every second of every minute of every hour and dragging down your productivity and velocity as you're just plowing forward soaking the noodles.
    - cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
      It really depends on what one's standard of "shitty code" is, but in my case my shitty code does perfectly fine until it reaches significant scale (as in millions of users). My thought process is: when I reach millions of users i better hire someone to help me with coding anyway and it's not too late to take care of it then. On the other hand, I have also made mistakes of over-engineering to make the code maintainable. What happens then is I can't really detach myself from the original idea no matter how much evidence there is to show me that it's not working, since I've invested so much in the technology. In that case the time I spent to make the code maintainable becomes a mental liability rather than an asset. I don't doubt you are a great developer and have great experience, and I don't doubt that spending 15-20 hours out of 100 hours when you've reached product market fit is something you should do, but I can say from my own experience and experiences from other successful/failed entrepreneurs I've met that it's absolutely a bad idea to do so when you're just 1-3 guys bootstrapping. In the beginning the only thing that matters is getting people to actually use your product, so you should spend 100% of your resources on getting there, not on optimizing maintainability at all. If you have actually been in that situation (a founder who's built his own product from scratch by bootstrapping) and still think it's best to spend 15-20 hours out of 100 hours working on maintainability, please let me know. I personally don't know any founder who thinks that way.

im_down_w_otp 10y ago

In my experience, when you're in the "invention phase" is when it's most critical and beneficial to have and demand more discipline around your output artifacts. Precisely because keeping context and content around your fast iterative decision-making and implementation phases is critical to avoid wasting time on duplicated effort or needlessly repeating mistakes over and over again. Literally every situation I've ever seen in 20 years across all manner of marketplaces and every imaginable stage of development has had the immediate faux-gains made from ignoring spending 10%-20% more time now (to produce something at least coherent, commented, and composable) ultimately overwhelmed by the soon-to-be-immediate costs of having to live with the consequences of the dubious "shortcuts" taken. I agree with you that it's extremely hard to achieve maintaining that kind of discipline when under the gun, but that's a people management and expectations problem, not an engineering effort problem. I'm 100% certain that in any given window of time, no matter how crunchy that crunchtime is, that if my team spends 10-15 out of every 100 man-hours producing a higher-quality "minimally acceptable" artifact that they'll both materially accomplish more in that first 100 hours than if they'd spent all of it hacking together a barely working dumpster-fire in the same window of time, and that it will pay glaringly obvious dividends for their productivity in the next 100 hours after, and the next after that, and so on. Lacking that discipline is neither a necessary condition nor a near or long-term benefit to a prototyping or product development cycle. It's purely a function of leadership, expectations management, and experience. (I'm even giving the benefit of the doubt that what's being done "hasn't existed before", which is overwhelmingly not the case. More typically it's different people and different teams just painfully learning the same hard lessons in parallel, often because there's an assumption/delusion what's being done is a legitimate pioneering effort instead of the probable reality that it's really a minor variation on something else that already has well-established successful models available to learn from and mimic.)

sangnoir 10y ago
> I'm 100% certain that in any given window of time, no matter how crunchy that crunchtime is, that if my team spends 10-15 out of every 100 man-hours producing a higher-quality "minimally acceptable" artifact that they'll both materially accomplish more in that first 100 hours than if they'd spent all of it hacking together a barely working dumpster-fire in the same window of time, and that it will pay glaringly obvious dividends for their productivity in the next 100 hours after, and the next after that, and so on The problems is at the very beginning, all (or most) of that code will be thrown away because you really don't know what works. How many cycles of wasted extra 20% effort would it take for you to change your mind?
- im_down_w_otp 10y ago
  You missed the point. In that same 100 hours, spending 15-20 hours applying best-practices has universally resulted in actually getting more out of that 100 block. The 100 hours spent on the spaghetti mess has always produced less, provided fewer insights, and often exactly nothing that can be soundly iterated on. This is because the friction and pain of technical debt doesn't wait until the end of the 100 hours to create problems. It's biting you every second of every minute of every hour and dragging down your productivity and velocity as you're just plowing forward soaking the noodles.
  - cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
    It really depends on what one's standard of "shitty code" is, but in my case my shitty code does perfectly fine until it reaches significant scale (as in millions of users). My thought process is: when I reach millions of users i better hire someone to help me with coding anyway and it's not too late to take care of it then. On the other hand, I have also made mistakes of over-engineering to make the code maintainable. What happens then is I can't really detach myself from the original idea no matter how much evidence there is to show me that it's not working, since I've invested so much in the technology. In that case the time I spent to make the code maintainable becomes a mental liability rather than an asset. I don't doubt you are a great developer and have great experience, and I don't doubt that spending 15-20 hours out of 100 hours when you've reached product market fit is something you should do, but I can say from my own experience and experiences from other successful/failed entrepreneurs I've met that it's absolutely a bad idea to do so when you're just 1-3 guys bootstrapping. In the beginning the only thing that matters is getting people to actually use your product, so you should spend 100% of your resources on getting there, not on optimizing maintainability at all. If you have actually been in that situation (a founder who's built his own product from scratch by bootstrapping) and still think it's best to spend 15-20 hours out of 100 hours working on maintainability, please let me know. I personally don't know any founder who thinks that way.