5 ms·

After living in NYC and now living in San Francisco, I wonder why the MTA hasn't switched to contactless cards yet similar to what Boston or SF has. As someone

by error54 10y ago

After living in NYC and now living in San Francisco, I wonder why the MTA hasn't switched to contactless cards yet similar to what Boston or SF has. As someone who has missed many a train trying to swipe my metro card, it seems like this would be an easy win for them and less wasteful than a disposable paper card.

egypturnash 10y ago
From what I understand, not having contactless cards is the least of the MTA's modernization issues. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/30/converting_the_new_york_city_subway_system_to_communications_based_train.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/30/convertin... http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-do... It mostly seems to boil down to budgeting woes and bureaucracy. And in having one of the oldest subway systems in the country with a ton of technical debt to deal with.
Fej 10y ago
Expensive. Expensive expensive expensive. They would have to replace all of the turnstiles (for some reason I doubt they could retrofit them) which is a ton of turnstiles. The MTA subway is BIG (as far as I know, bigger than SF and Boston, in terms of number of stations). They would need dedicated central servers to handle everything, unlike they have now, which the article says "complements" the existing system but which is not required for operation. MetroCard came out over a decade before CharlieCard (Boston) so they have tons of infrastructure that would cost an absurd amount of money to replace. I imagine they figure it isn't worth it, especially when there are so many other subway projects that need money.
- tjohns 10y ago
  Central servers are not required for contactless cards. The card itself holds the current balance inside a tamper-proof secure element, and it's updated with every ride. A central server can be used for things like web-based reloads and auditing, complementing the system... but it's entirely possible for a terminal to remain in offline-mode and just check-in at the end of the day to get any pending messages and upload logs. This is why it takes longer to reload/unblock a SF Clipper card using a reader in a bus (offline mode) as opposed to at a BART turnstile (online mode).
  - tetrep 10y ago
    > ...tamper-proof secure element... It doesn't even need to be held in anything secure, you just need to sign the balance when writing and check the signature when it's used.
    - shaftway 10y ago
      What's your replay attack mitigation strategy?
    - throwanem 10y ago
      If your turnstiles can't talk to a server, they can't check key revocation lists, and I tend to imagine that in a city the size of New York somebody's going to leak a key every now and again - it's been known to happen with physical keys; why not digital ones, too?
      - dsr_ 10y ago
        But they don't need to have a realtime revocation list -- it's fine if a broken card works until the end of the day, or even the end of the week, as long as it stops working faster than keys are leaked or cracked. So a bus turnstile can do transactions when it returns to the garage, and turnstiles in locations where it's hard to run data for whatever reason can get a plug-in every so often on a regular maintenance run.
oh_sigh 10y ago
I heard some rumors about NYC looking into buying the oyster card tech, which is used on the London tube http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/london-contactless-oyster-card-replace-metrocard-article-1.2711096 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/london-contactless-oys...
busterarm 10y ago
I think they'd have to get around to replacing the Token Ring network that sends this data between stations first. The MTA spent a lot of money in the very early 90s getting the system installed only for Ethernet to take over pretty much immediately.
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  At least the MTA kiosks are fast and reliable unlike the VB6-ish crap running on the NJT TVMs that can't do anything but display a spinner animation if the network is degraded.
  - woodruffw 10y ago
    Fun fact: The MVMs (MTA Vending Machines) run OS/2 Warp/EComStation (or did until a few years ago). I've also seen some running what looked like NT 4, although I'm not certain. Considering how old that software stack is, it's remarkable how well the MVMs run. In 19 years of buying MetroCards and riding the subway, I don't think I've ever had one break down on me. I've had my fair share of scanning errors and bad cards, but I'm more inclined to blame that on the quality of the magnetic strip and normal wear.
  - nycdotnet 10y ago
    I don't know the language used by the kiosk software itself, but the OS used by the kiosks is definitely still Windows NT 4 - predating VB6 by several years. Here's a recent bluescreen - only the second I've ever observed. https://twitter.com/nycdotnet/status/750737744356319232 https://twitter.com/nycdotnet/status/750737744356319232
specialp 10y ago
NYC subway system has over double the stations of Boston and San Francisco combined. All of which in a densely populated city, and operating 24 hours a day. Doing any work in NYC costs huge amounts of money. Many of the BART and MBTA are in suburban density areas as well, unlike the NYC system that does not enter suburbs or Staten Island.
ruddct 10y ago
1) NYC is the biggest metro system in the world (in terms of number of stations) by a fairly large margin. 2) The MTA is a perpetually underfunded, poorly governed monstrosity whose construction projects cost many times more than any other comparable metro system. 3) The MetroCard still works, as clunky as it occasionally is.
- woodruffw 10y ago
  If I remember correctly, the MTA has had a (sizable) surplus for the past few years. It's more chronic mismanagement (and graft) than underfunding.
phonon 10y ago
They're working on it http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-warned-ending-metrocards-2018-optimistic-article-1.2606395 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-warned-ending-metroc...
jads 10y ago
>this would be an easy win It'd be far from easy. The cost and magnitude of a project like this would be enormous for the entire subway system, and the MTA is not without bureaucracy. As others have pointed out, the subway has far more pressing modernization issues that rank higher than this. I lived in London for several years before moving to NY this year and the failure rate of swiping my MetroCard is about the same as touch issues with my Oyster card / contactless debit card in London. While it would be a great advancement technologically, there really isn't a pressing need to replace the swipe card anytime soon. There are definitely many advantages to contactless cards, but I'd rather the MTA focus their efforts on something with much more of a benefit. E.g., real-time train information, something that also requires a huge infrastructure change, but one that would have a greater benefit to travelers.
mtalantikite 10y ago
There's a $450 million RFP out for it: http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/12/11416362/mta-nyc-fare-payment-contactless-mobile-ticketing http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/12/11416362/mta-nyc-fare-paym... So, considering how gov software projects tend to go, it'll probably cost $1.5 billion and come out in the early 2020s.

by error54 10y ago

egypturnash 10y ago

From what I understand, not having contactless cards is the least of the MTA's modernization issues. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/30/converting_the_new_york_city_subway_system_to_communications_based_train.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/30/convertin... http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-do... It mostly seems to boil down to budgeting woes and bureaucracy. And in having one of the oldest subway systems in the country with a ton of technical debt to deal with.

Fej 10y ago

Expensive. Expensive expensive expensive. They would have to replace all of the turnstiles (for some reason I doubt they could retrofit them) which is a ton of turnstiles. The MTA subway is BIG (as far as I know, bigger than SF and Boston, in terms of number of stations). They would need dedicated central servers to handle everything, unlike they have now, which the article says "complements" the existing system but which is not required for operation. MetroCard came out over a decade before CharlieCard (Boston) so they have tons of infrastructure that would cost an absurd amount of money to replace. I imagine they figure it isn't worth it, especially when there are so many other subway projects that need money.

tjohns 10y ago
Central servers are not required for contactless cards. The card itself holds the current balance inside a tamper-proof secure element, and it's updated with every ride. A central server can be used for things like web-based reloads and auditing, complementing the system... but it's entirely possible for a terminal to remain in offline-mode and just check-in at the end of the day to get any pending messages and upload logs. This is why it takes longer to reload/unblock a SF Clipper card using a reader in a bus (offline mode) as opposed to at a BART turnstile (online mode).
- tetrep 10y ago
  > ...tamper-proof secure element... It doesn't even need to be held in anything secure, you just need to sign the balance when writing and check the signature when it's used.
  - shaftway 10y ago
    What's your replay attack mitigation strategy?
  - throwanem 10y ago
    If your turnstiles can't talk to a server, they can't check key revocation lists, and I tend to imagine that in a city the size of New York somebody's going to leak a key every now and again - it's been known to happen with physical keys; why not digital ones, too?
    - dsr_ 10y ago
      But they don't need to have a realtime revocation list -- it's fine if a broken card works until the end of the day, or even the end of the week, as long as it stops working faster than keys are leaked or cracked. So a bus turnstile can do transactions when it returns to the garage, and turnstiles in locations where it's hard to run data for whatever reason can get a plug-in every so often on a regular maintenance run.

oh_sigh 10y ago

I heard some rumors about NYC looking into buying the oyster card tech, which is used on the London tube http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/london-contactless-oyster-card-replace-metrocard-article-1.2711096 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/london-contactless-oys...

busterarm 10y ago

I think they'd have to get around to replacing the Token Ring network that sends this data between stations first. The MTA spent a lot of money in the very early 90s getting the system installed only for Ethernet to take over pretty much immediately.

kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
At least the MTA kiosks are fast and reliable unlike the VB6-ish crap running on the NJT TVMs that can't do anything but display a spinner animation if the network is degraded.
- woodruffw 10y ago
  Fun fact: The MVMs (MTA Vending Machines) run OS/2 Warp/EComStation (or did until a few years ago). I've also seen some running what looked like NT 4, although I'm not certain. Considering how old that software stack is, it's remarkable how well the MVMs run. In 19 years of buying MetroCards and riding the subway, I don't think I've ever had one break down on me. I've had my fair share of scanning errors and bad cards, but I'm more inclined to blame that on the quality of the magnetic strip and normal wear.
- nycdotnet 10y ago
  I don't know the language used by the kiosk software itself, but the OS used by the kiosks is definitely still Windows NT 4 - predating VB6 by several years. Here's a recent bluescreen - only the second I've ever observed. https://twitter.com/nycdotnet/status/750737744356319232 https://twitter.com/nycdotnet/status/750737744356319232

specialp 10y ago

NYC subway system has over double the stations of Boston and San Francisco combined. All of which in a densely populated city, and operating 24 hours a day. Doing any work in NYC costs huge amounts of money. Many of the BART and MBTA are in suburban density areas as well, unlike the NYC system that does not enter suburbs or Staten Island.

ruddct 10y ago

1) NYC is the biggest metro system in the world (in terms of number of stations) by a fairly large margin. 2) The MTA is a perpetually underfunded, poorly governed monstrosity whose construction projects cost many times more than any other comparable metro system. 3) The MetroCard still works, as clunky as it occasionally is.

woodruffw 10y ago
If I remember correctly, the MTA has had a (sizable) surplus for the past few years. It's more chronic mismanagement (and graft) than underfunding.

phonon 10y ago

They're working on it http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-warned-ending-metrocards-2018-optimistic-article-1.2606395 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-warned-ending-metroc...

jads 10y ago

>this would be an easy win It'd be far from easy. The cost and magnitude of a project like this would be enormous for the entire subway system, and the MTA is not without bureaucracy. As others have pointed out, the subway has far more pressing modernization issues that rank higher than this. I lived in London for several years before moving to NY this year and the failure rate of swiping my MetroCard is about the same as touch issues with my Oyster card / contactless debit card in London. While it would be a great advancement technologically, there really isn't a pressing need to replace the swipe card anytime soon. There are definitely many advantages to contactless cards, but I'd rather the MTA focus their efforts on something with much more of a benefit. E.g., real-time train information, something that also requires a huge infrastructure change, but one that would have a greater benefit to travelers.

mtalantikite 10y ago

There's a $450 million RFP out for it: http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/12/11416362/mta-nyc-fare-payment-contactless-mobile-ticketing http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/12/11416362/mta-nyc-fare-paym... So, considering how gov software projects tend to go, it'll probably cost $1.5 billion and come out in the early 2020s.