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There is some historical precedence. However, I'm not sure if we have any precedent for what is happening in engineering. Medical, MBA, and even law schools d

by geebee 17y ago

There is some historical precedence. However, I'm not sure if we have any precedent for what is happening in engineering. Medical, MBA, and even law schools do admit international students, of course, and engineering graduate programs should too. Our schools would be much weaker if we limited ourselves to US born students, and the experience of all students would be poorer for it. But the percentage of US born students has dropped so severely in graduate engineering programs that I think we're in uncharted and dangerous waters here. When I was a grad student in engineering at Berkeley (about a decade ago now), I become accustomed to being the only person who grew up in the US in class, study groups, and so forth. For the reasons I described above, I think this is a dangerous situation for the US. In fact, I actually think that our graduate engineering schools (this is based on my limited experience at Berkeley) are starting to assume a European or Asian type of undergraduate preparation, where students tend to specialize earlier, than an American one, where we do more general education and specialize later. While I actually think that Americans from top undergraduate colleges are very well educated, they probably aren't at the same point in their particular branch of study as international students who have studied their subjects more exclusively as undergraduates, so we may soon be at a point where the structure of US graduate education in engineering is less accessible to people who have come up through our own education system. By analogy, supposed you majored in English and went to law school, having never taken a law class. That's how it works in the US. Now imagine if 95% of your classmates spent the last 4 years at Oxford studying common law, including substantial amounts of study of the US legal system. Well, you'd struggle no matter how wonderful an undergrad student you'd been. I think this structural shift is well underway in US based graduate engineering programs. Interestingly, US students do enroll in undergraduate engineering programs, because those degrees pay. They just tend to avoid graduate programs in favor of law, business, and medicine - and if you look at the numbers, it's hard to conclude that this is not a highly rational decision.

arghnoname 17y ago
I considered engineering and looked at the numbers and concluded, rationally I think, that the pay was not in line with the amount of work necessary to obtain the education. There are easier ways to make more money, so why bother? I'll grant you that money isn't everything. I'm sure some would argue that I don't love engineering enough to do it anyway, and the field is better off without me. Maybe they're right, but I figure there are other areas that can be interesting and suffer from less of the wage and job pressures engineering is facing. You can imagine my surprise when I started to get excited about engineering and then I did my research and found the 'shortage' is really not so dire or real as public pronouncements had me believe. I think it's a complex problem and would agree that dismissing any doubts against it as being largely xenophobic is a little unfair. I don't know what the answer is, but if we really want American born engineers we should recognize that we have a problem here. If we don't mind importing them, maybe this is a cheaper way at the cost of pushing Americans into other fields.
- geebee 17y ago
  William Zumeta, a professor of public policy at the University of Washington, produced a pretty good paper addressing the "so be it" argument (ie., the argument that if Americans wish to abandon science and engineering in response to market signals, what's the problem?). http://evans.washington.edu/files/zumeta-attracting-the-best.pdf http://evans.washington.edu/files/zumeta-attracting-the-best... A particularly relevant passage: "...to the extent policies do respond to perceived shortages, they tend to be shortsighted and exacerbate longer run problems. This is true of recent policies that simply expand the number of visas granted to foreign scientists to fill empty job slits in industry, and of government R&D support policies that pay little heed to impacts on graduate students. Expanding imports of young scientists to fill empty slots at bargain wages dampens the market signal that more opportunities and higher salaries would provide to domestic talent..." Zumeta also gives some numbers on what top S/E undergraduates are doing instead of graduate engineering programs (interestingly, it isn't law, it's generally MBA or health professions. Of course, there's a potential complication here - Zumeta is only tracking S/E grads with quant GREs above 750, so he isn't considering the undergraduates who decided earlier on that engineering isn't for them (I suspect the US starts to lose most of its engineers in 8th grade). I'm glad you agree that accusing people like Zumeta of being "xenophobes" is a little unfair (I think it's more than a little unfair, really, it's a pretty horrendous way to use personal attacks to suppress what should be a fair, honest, and open discussion). But a lot of very high profile writers (Moira at Business Week, for instance), continue to do this.
  - arghnoname 17y ago
    Zumeta's article does a good job of citing many of the conditions I personally noticed when I considered heading more in that direction. I would be surprised if H1B's and other programs have no effect on wages and job opportunities in this field (though I know some counter that they don't). One argument I imagine people make is, assuming H1B and other visa programs suppress wages, and this in turn retards the desire for young Americans to get into these fields, why is this a problem? I suppose one could argue that restricting immigration will lead to higher wages, which ultimately will lead to more engineering students, but at a much higher expense. Ultimately this won't be globally competitive and is unnecessary when there are plenty of students from elsewhere in the world who will do equal caliber work at much lower cost. I suppose one could argue that, but I wouldn't. Intellectually though, I'm hard pressed to say why our engineers really should be American born in larger quantities than they are today. I suppose we've all been witness to what happens when we push bright individuals into finance instead of engineering. It doesn't necessarily end up being advantageous innovation.

by geebee 17y ago

arghnoname 17y ago

I considered engineering and looked at the numbers and concluded, rationally I think, that the pay was not in line with the amount of work necessary to obtain the education. There are easier ways to make more money, so why bother? I'll grant you that money isn't everything. I'm sure some would argue that I don't love engineering enough to do it anyway, and the field is better off without me. Maybe they're right, but I figure there are other areas that can be interesting and suffer from less of the wage and job pressures engineering is facing. You can imagine my surprise when I started to get excited about engineering and then I did my research and found the 'shortage' is really not so dire or real as public pronouncements had me believe. I think it's a complex problem and would agree that dismissing any doubts against it as being largely xenophobic is a little unfair. I don't know what the answer is, but if we really want American born engineers we should recognize that we have a problem here. If we don't mind importing them, maybe this is a cheaper way at the cost of pushing Americans into other fields.

geebee 17y ago
William Zumeta, a professor of public policy at the University of Washington, produced a pretty good paper addressing the "so be it" argument (ie., the argument that if Americans wish to abandon science and engineering in response to market signals, what's the problem?). http://evans.washington.edu/files/zumeta-attracting-the-best.pdf http://evans.washington.edu/files/zumeta-attracting-the-best... A particularly relevant passage: "...to the extent policies do respond to perceived shortages, they tend to be shortsighted and exacerbate longer run problems. This is true of recent policies that simply expand the number of visas granted to foreign scientists to fill empty job slits in industry, and of government R&D support policies that pay little heed to impacts on graduate students. Expanding imports of young scientists to fill empty slots at bargain wages dampens the market signal that more opportunities and higher salaries would provide to domestic talent..." Zumeta also gives some numbers on what top S/E undergraduates are doing instead of graduate engineering programs (interestingly, it isn't law, it's generally MBA or health professions. Of course, there's a potential complication here - Zumeta is only tracking S/E grads with quant GREs above 750, so he isn't considering the undergraduates who decided earlier on that engineering isn't for them (I suspect the US starts to lose most of its engineers in 8th grade). I'm glad you agree that accusing people like Zumeta of being "xenophobes" is a little unfair (I think it's more than a little unfair, really, it's a pretty horrendous way to use personal attacks to suppress what should be a fair, honest, and open discussion). But a lot of very high profile writers (Moira at Business Week, for instance), continue to do this.
- arghnoname 17y ago
  Zumeta's article does a good job of citing many of the conditions I personally noticed when I considered heading more in that direction. I would be surprised if H1B's and other programs have no effect on wages and job opportunities in this field (though I know some counter that they don't). One argument I imagine people make is, assuming H1B and other visa programs suppress wages, and this in turn retards the desire for young Americans to get into these fields, why is this a problem? I suppose one could argue that restricting immigration will lead to higher wages, which ultimately will lead to more engineering students, but at a much higher expense. Ultimately this won't be globally competitive and is unnecessary when there are plenty of students from elsewhere in the world who will do equal caliber work at much lower cost. I suppose one could argue that, but I wouldn't. Intellectually though, I'm hard pressed to say why our engineers really should be American born in larger quantities than they are today. I suppose we've all been witness to what happens when we push bright individuals into finance instead of engineering. It doesn't necessarily end up being advantageous innovation.