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I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. You might be surprised to learn that

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. You might be surprised to learn that not even the Soviet Union considered itself communist (they considered themselves socialist transitioning to communist). The reality is that "socialist" is a word without a clear definition, and it's better to avoid using it altogether if you want people to understand you. If by socialism you mean, "a country that takes care of the poor" than say that. Arguing over the definition of the term 'socialism' is arguing over a definition, and a waste of breath.

tptacek 10y ago
I agree that it's a pointless argument, but that goes both ways. Plenty of people use the term "socialist" in ways that don't connote planned economies. Moreover, there are examples of state-run economies that are neither socialist nor communist. The trouble is that when we talk about the positive aspects of socialism, we have an annoying tendancy to exploit the word to make Sweden an apology for Venezuela: we confuse "socialized services" with "command economy" and end up ignoring the real public policy failures of places like Venezuela. And when we talk about its negative aspects, we tend to make Venezuela a cautionary tale against, say, single-payer health care.
jdblair 10y ago
"Socialism" has a clear, simple definition. Socialism is the ownership and control of the means of production by the government for the people. Its the mis-use of the term socialism and the details of actually implementing government ownership of the means of production that makes discussions so confusing. To pick a few examples, Obamacare is not socialism. Government assistance, as implemented in the US, is not socialism. A state run oil company, on the other hand, may be part of a socialist economy.
- tptacek 10y ago
  It's more complicated even than this, and, unfortunately, that means your argument isn't dispositive. There is, for instance, "market socialism", which describes public/private cooperatives. Sweden would call itself a "social democracy", rather than a "socialist country", but Sweden does some things that clearly cross the line in ownership and control of the means of production for some industries. Moreover: most countries with single-payer health care --- the UK, Canada, France --- have state control over one of the most important sectors of the economy! By your definition, they're (at least in part) socialist countries. But they would dispute the characterization. It's not other people who are causing these problems by incorrectly using the terms. It's that reliably using the term "socialism" with any precision requires so much clunky verbiage that nobody --- on either side --- can use it correctly. When we use the term or see it used, we should raise a flag so that we all understand it's ambiguous, and leave it at that. For what it's worth: by no definition does it make sense to call Obamacare "socialist".
  - nickff 10y ago
    Obamacare is socialist in the sense that it enabled a great deal of government control over the healthcare market, which is a rather large sector of the economy, almost indisputably one of the 'commanding heights'.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      This is logic that suggests that any regulation of any major market is intrinsically "socialist". Perhaps that's true, but if it's true it's only true in the sense that it illustrates how treacherous the word "socialism" is.
      - nickff 10y ago
        There is the saying "why own the farm If you can own the farmer?", which has been attributed to various totalitarians (and whose true origin I am unaware of), that highlights the fact that owning the actual means of production is unnecessary if you control the owner. This can be through regulation, corruption, or other means. I don't see socialism as a 'treacherous' word, but 'socialism' is more a spectrum than a boolean variable. For instance, I am sure you are more socialist than I am, but that does not make you the same as Castro or Mao.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Careful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
        nickff 10y ago
        I don't understand where you believe I am making a fundamental attribution error. I am an extreme libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist (depending on where you draw the line), and from what I've read in your posts over the last years, you are nowhere near that side of the spectrum(s), unless you usually argue in favor of things you disagree with.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  eh, i don't know this is like saying that "real-time" has clear, simple definition... except for all those times in which people writing medical software disagree with people writing videogames. socialism is a word that doesn't let people communicate effectively. you say it meaning one thing, and people may understand in a multitude of ways. I think the advice to avoid using it is sound.
- mattmcknight 10y ago
  The biggest confusion I see is exactly this, people use "socialism" when they mean "welfare state".
klodolph 10y ago
I think "capitalism" and "free trade" are similarly without clear definitions, given the amount of time people spend arguing about them. This seems to be a consistent truth. Perhaps we should develop tools to be able to converse with people who don't use the same definitions that we do?
- ktRolster 10y ago
  I agree with you on capitalism, so it is another word I tend to avoid. I try to say things in a way that I will be understood. I don't know about "free trade," though, what sorts of alternate definitions are people using for that?
  - klodolph 10y ago
    People seem to have disagreements over how much regulation and what kind of regulation you would have before trade is no longer considered free trade.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Maybe give people a survey to assign a word2vec-like coordinate to their beliefs about each term, and then tell them which term is actually closest to their belief vector?

tptacek 10y ago

I agree that it's a pointless argument, but that goes both ways. Plenty of people use the term "socialist" in ways that don't connote planned economies. Moreover, there are examples of state-run economies that are neither socialist nor communist. The trouble is that when we talk about the positive aspects of socialism, we have an annoying tendancy to exploit the word to make Sweden an apology for Venezuela: we confuse "socialized services" with "command economy" and end up ignoring the real public policy failures of places like Venezuela. And when we talk about its negative aspects, we tend to make Venezuela a cautionary tale against, say, single-payer health care.

jdblair 10y ago

"Socialism" has a clear, simple definition. Socialism is the ownership and control of the means of production by the government for the people. Its the mis-use of the term socialism and the details of actually implementing government ownership of the means of production that makes discussions so confusing. To pick a few examples, Obamacare is not socialism. Government assistance, as implemented in the US, is not socialism. A state run oil company, on the other hand, may be part of a socialist economy.

tptacek 10y ago
It's more complicated even than this, and, unfortunately, that means your argument isn't dispositive. There is, for instance, "market socialism", which describes public/private cooperatives. Sweden would call itself a "social democracy", rather than a "socialist country", but Sweden does some things that clearly cross the line in ownership and control of the means of production for some industries. Moreover: most countries with single-payer health care --- the UK, Canada, France --- have state control over one of the most important sectors of the economy! By your definition, they're (at least in part) socialist countries. But they would dispute the characterization. It's not other people who are causing these problems by incorrectly using the terms. It's that reliably using the term "socialism" with any precision requires so much clunky verbiage that nobody --- on either side --- can use it correctly. When we use the term or see it used, we should raise a flag so that we all understand it's ambiguous, and leave it at that. For what it's worth: by no definition does it make sense to call Obamacare "socialist".
- nickff 10y ago
  Obamacare is socialist in the sense that it enabled a great deal of government control over the healthcare market, which is a rather large sector of the economy, almost indisputably one of the 'commanding heights'.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    This is logic that suggests that any regulation of any major market is intrinsically "socialist". Perhaps that's true, but if it's true it's only true in the sense that it illustrates how treacherous the word "socialism" is.
    - nickff 10y ago
      There is the saying "why own the farm If you can own the farmer?", which has been attributed to various totalitarians (and whose true origin I am unaware of), that highlights the fact that owning the actual means of production is unnecessary if you control the owner. This can be through regulation, corruption, or other means. I don't see socialism as a 'treacherous' word, but 'socialism' is more a spectrum than a boolean variable. For instance, I am sure you are more socialist than I am, but that does not make you the same as Castro or Mao.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Careful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
        nickff 10y ago
        I don't understand where you believe I am making a fundamental attribution error. I am an extreme libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist (depending on where you draw the line), and from what I've read in your posts over the last years, you are nowhere near that side of the spectrum(s), unless you usually argue in favor of things you disagree with.
RodericDay 10y ago
eh, i don't know this is like saying that "real-time" has clear, simple definition... except for all those times in which people writing medical software disagree with people writing videogames. socialism is a word that doesn't let people communicate effectively. you say it meaning one thing, and people may understand in a multitude of ways. I think the advice to avoid using it is sound.
mattmcknight 10y ago
The biggest confusion I see is exactly this, people use "socialism" when they mean "welfare state".

klodolph 10y ago

I think "capitalism" and "free trade" are similarly without clear definitions, given the amount of time people spend arguing about them. This seems to be a consistent truth. Perhaps we should develop tools to be able to converse with people who don't use the same definitions that we do?

ktRolster 10y ago
I agree with you on capitalism, so it is another word I tend to avoid. I try to say things in a way that I will be understood. I don't know about "free trade," though, what sorts of alternate definitions are people using for that?
- klodolph 10y ago
  People seem to have disagreements over how much regulation and what kind of regulation you would have before trade is no longer considered free trade.
nitrogen 10y ago
Maybe give people a survey to assign a word2vec-like coordinate to their beliefs about each term, and then tell them which term is actually closest to their belief vector?