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I'm reminded of an experience many years ago, when talking to a couple of other senior engineers about a talented but hotheaded young manager who couldn't under

by beat 10y ago

I'm reminded of an experience many years ago, when talking to a couple of other senior engineers about a talented but hotheaded young manager who couldn't understand why we were all so cautious about new ideas. We decided that what he really needed was a death march - the experience of being stuck on a project that is inevitably doomed, and having to push on through to the bitter end anyway. That'd teach him!

nsxwolf 10y ago
... and you executed on this death march idea? Did he learn anything, and was it worth the toll you put on yourselves?
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  Senior engineers with the foresight and savviness to execute on such a plan are also going to be savvy enough to not allow it to exact a toll on themselves. Especially with junior managers. Pressure will be created and focused onto the non-technical problem creator and reliefs for that pressure will be similarly engineered in precisely the same manner. All the while, the engineers will keep a smug, knowing look on their faces while the manager flounders around a technical terrain that they can't begin to fathom and that has suddenly become utterly hostile. The manager will eventually 'get it', realizing that he has to work with the engineering team and not against them. Then all problems magically evaporate and a new understanding is reached.
  - nsxwolf 10y ago
    Frankly, this sounds absolutely insane. How is a death march that doesn't exact a toll a death march? Does anyone work a 40 hour a week death march? Why wouldn't you just look for a new job? Why waste your own time on a doomed project? I certainly hope all the engineers are in on the joke, because if I found out some others on my team conspired to create this situation without letting me decide to be involved or not I would be super pissed.
    - vinceguidry 10y ago
      Nobody non-technical knows what an engineer is really doing while he is sitting at his desk. He might be at his desk 50+ hours a week, earning time-and-a-half on top of his already lucrative salary, but he won't actually be contributing anything that the company actually needs. The senior engineers certainly won't be working more than 40 hours a week. That's for the younger fellas. If you got handed a bunch of bullshit tasks by your senior engineer with or without a generous amount of winking and subtle sarcasm, you'd pick up on it pretty quick. You'd have all sorts of questions about why X needs to be done and would be getting no straight answers. Eventually you'd either get the picture or someone will take you aside and delicately let you in on it. Think that scene in Silicon Valley where Big Head is having his new "role" described to him, only done by the engineers rather than an HR manager. If it looks like you need a lesson in savviness yourself, they won't let you in on it and let you flounder around just like the manager.
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    I've heard this described similarly as "management views everything as a negotiation which for engineers it isn't". "We need to cut the deadline in half!" "We can't, if we want n features we need y time" "Can we cut it by 25%?"
  - rejschaap 10y ago
    And perhaps some time later the 'Senior' Engineer will 'get it' that he has to work with the management team and not against them.
- beat 10y ago
  Oh, of course not! We weren't going to inflict that pain on ourselves... The manager quit not long after, had a potentially good hardware startup that failed due to problems outside his control. Don't know what he's doing now, but I'm sure the startup life is better for him than enterprise.

by beat 10y ago

nsxwolf 10y ago

... and you executed on this death march idea? Did he learn anything, and was it worth the toll you put on yourselves?

vinceguidry 10y ago
Senior engineers with the foresight and savviness to execute on such a plan are also going to be savvy enough to not allow it to exact a toll on themselves. Especially with junior managers. Pressure will be created and focused onto the non-technical problem creator and reliefs for that pressure will be similarly engineered in precisely the same manner. All the while, the engineers will keep a smug, knowing look on their faces while the manager flounders around a technical terrain that they can't begin to fathom and that has suddenly become utterly hostile. The manager will eventually 'get it', realizing that he has to work with the engineering team and not against them. Then all problems magically evaporate and a new understanding is reached.
- nsxwolf 10y ago
  Frankly, this sounds absolutely insane. How is a death march that doesn't exact a toll a death march? Does anyone work a 40 hour a week death march? Why wouldn't you just look for a new job? Why waste your own time on a doomed project? I certainly hope all the engineers are in on the joke, because if I found out some others on my team conspired to create this situation without letting me decide to be involved or not I would be super pissed.
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    Nobody non-technical knows what an engineer is really doing while he is sitting at his desk. He might be at his desk 50+ hours a week, earning time-and-a-half on top of his already lucrative salary, but he won't actually be contributing anything that the company actually needs. The senior engineers certainly won't be working more than 40 hours a week. That's for the younger fellas. If you got handed a bunch of bullshit tasks by your senior engineer with or without a generous amount of winking and subtle sarcasm, you'd pick up on it pretty quick. You'd have all sorts of questions about why X needs to be done and would be getting no straight answers. Eventually you'd either get the picture or someone will take you aside and delicately let you in on it. Think that scene in Silicon Valley where Big Head is having his new "role" described to him, only done by the engineers rather than an HR manager. If it looks like you need a lesson in savviness yourself, they won't let you in on it and let you flounder around just like the manager.
- ben_jones 10y ago
  I've heard this described similarly as "management views everything as a negotiation which for engineers it isn't". "We need to cut the deadline in half!" "We can't, if we want n features we need y time" "Can we cut it by 25%?"
- rejschaap 10y ago
  And perhaps some time later the 'Senior' Engineer will 'get it' that he has to work with the management team and not against them.
beat 10y ago
Oh, of course not! We weren't going to inflict that pain on ourselves... The manager quit not long after, had a potentially good hardware startup that failed due to problems outside his control. Don't know what he's doing now, but I'm sure the startup life is better for him than enterprise.