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Lack of a functional democracy is the problem, not socialism.
by lightlyused 10y ago
Lack of a functional democracy is the problem, not socialism.
- zeveb 10y ago> Lack of a functional democracy is the problem, not socialism. It's entirely possible to democratically decide to steal the means of production from the capitalists — and thus experience exactly these consequences.
- randiantech 10y agoI cant recall a single example of a functional democracy in a socialist government. Seems to be mutually exclusive outputs.
- eudox 10y agoVenezuela elected Chavez in at least three internationally verified and observed elections (1998, 2000, 2006).
- randiantech 10y agoHaving democrat elections is not the same of having a functional democracy.
- lightlyused 10y agoExactly what I pointed out, although it seems some didn't like my comment.
- huherto 10y agoHe was elected democratically, but then he behaved like a dictator. He was not aware of his ignorance in economics, and he had to support of the people. The results were disastrous.
- eudox 10y ago>He was elected democratically, but then he behaved like a dictator. He was elected democratically to behave like a dictator. Most dictatorships advertise quite clearly what they intend to do.
- CamonZ 10y ago@eudox. Rigged elections.
- eudox 10y agoFirstly, that's not how replies work. Secondly, no, they were not rigged elections. A couple of links: https://www.cartercenter.org/documents/297.pdf https://www.cartercenter.org/documents/297.pdf http://eeas.europa.eu/eueom/missions/2006/venezuela/index_en.htm http://eeas.europa.eu/eueom/missions/2006/venezuela/index_en... Of course democracy is not incompatible with Communism. How could it be when the people are enthusiastic supporters of Communism?
- CamonZ 10y agoThere have been countless statistical anomalies on all elections since 2004; like voting centers with 0 abstention and 100% votes pro-government on extremely remote locations without oversight from the opposition. But please, continue lecturing me on my country's electoral and voting system.
- eudox 10y ago>since 2004 That's after two Chavez elections. Then the people were voting for Communism well before the elections were rigged in an observable way
- CamonZ 10y ago>The people were voting for Communism Clearly, the world has always been filled with idiots full of resentment towards people that made better decisions and became more successful.
- eudox 10y agoSo there you go. That's how Communism is compatible with democracy. It burns the same fuel: the promise of mass political power.
- markeroon 10y agoUhhh... how about almost every Nordic country?
- randiantech 10y agoThen probably we are not referring to the same thing when we talk about socialism.
- astrodust 10y agoIf you're using "socialism" as a bugaboo, probably not. It has a broad meaning, like "democracy", but it's not always a bad thing.
- randiantech 10y agoI was referring socialism as a society where state does not allow private property (at least to a major extent), and violates individual human rights in favor of collective ones.
- astrodust 10y agoYou're confusing "socialism" with "communist". Socialist societies do not, as a rule, limit ownership of private property. Any that do are usually socialist and something else, like totalitarian or communist. Likewise a socialist state does not necessarily limit individual freedoms. Communist regimes have, but they're also totalitarian, so which philosophy is to blame is sometimes hard to pin down. Modern communist societies have also relaxed these restrictions significantly, though there were times when everything was forced communal.
- JPKab 10y agoNobody is saying socialism is inherently bad here. The Nordic model, for instance, still has a free market means of production. Socialist safety nets are fine. Venezuela has for years had a full-on centrally planned economy with the state setting the prices for goods independent of their costs of production, all as a tool to continue winning electoral support from the poor. That is a very, very nasty aspect of a socialist system, which is avoided by successful socialist nations. Edit: This was meant to be a reply to the parent comment.
- nikdaheratik 10y agoIt's entirely possible to have the same result via crony capitalism instead. The problem is too much power in the hands of too few people. It doesn't matter what label their government claims to fall under at this point.
- rufus_2 10y agoFunny, these systems always end up in this state, but it's never the system that causes it! How many more examples do you need before you recognize the obvious pattern?
- CamonZ 10y agoSays the person who has never lived under socialism. We were a functioning democracy, in fact we were the most stable and rich country in latin america. Socialism has led to a non–functioning democracy, shortages, massive crime and violence.
- CWuestefeld 10y agoYou need to read Hayek's The Road to Serfdom. He explains how giving the State the power to make all the economic decisions necessarily devolves into this kind of dystopia.
- danielweber 10y agoThe government was elected with overwhelming support.
- lightlyused 10y agoBeing elected and actually governing in a functional manner are two different things.