4 ms·

> or any console produced by Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft I suspect that'll change. Sony and Microsoft are both using more or less standard AMD GPUs, and game

by TillE 10y ago

> or any console produced by Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft I suspect that'll change. Sony and Microsoft are both using more or less standard AMD GPUs, and game (engine) developers will demand it.

pjmlp 10y ago
No, indies will demand it. AAA studios are doing quite fine with the current API that are even lower than Vulkan. Indies with FOSS background seem to have a hard time to grasp how the games industry works in terms of IP, technology stacks and outsourcing for platform ports.
- shmerl 10y ago
  That will change when pressure will grow. Same as ActiveX was driven out by standard Web technologies. Lock-in freaks will try to resist, but they can only delay it. > No, indies will demand it. > AAA studios are doing quite fine with the current API that are even lower than Vulkan. Meaning of "AAA" is totally mixed up, so there is no point to use this term without explaining what you mean. Indie might mean independent indeed, but what AAA stands for is completely ambiguous. You might mean projects with big budgets, but they can be independent as well (Star Citizen), so you can't use it as some universal category. For the reference Star Citizen is going to use Vulkan. Regardless of what "AAA" is supposed to mean, they will use whatever will cut their costs to do the job well enough. And cross platform options surely will, if they'll be available.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    I see you all the time posting these Quixotic comments, then I get to attend GDC and see what everyone that matters in the industry actually thinks.
    - shmerl 10y ago
      I see you still are a fan of lock-in. Calling it "fine" and saying that's how it's supposed to be is not helpful. "Industry" which thinks backwards doesn't need to be shown as an example. It's not the "industry", it's monopolistic participants who use lock-in to control the market. Progress is driven by competition, not by monopolistic lock-in stagnation.
      - cobalt 10y ago
        most companies have and will just port it to different platforms, using the api that gives them the most performance. It's hardly lock-in
        shmerl 10y ago
        > most companies have and will just port it to different platforms, using the api that gives them the most performance Yes, when they have a choice and resources. It's not even the case here. I.e. it's not like developers simply prefer lock-in when dealing with some of the walled garden platforms. They simply have no choice - the likes of MS, Sony and others don't leave them that choice. It's not a discussion on technical merits. You could use your logic if developers could actually choose.
        dmytroi 10y ago
        Of course they do, but under NDA, just ask. OpenGL on top of whatever GAPI is on target platform is usually <100 KLOC, so completely possible to write your own if you REALLY need to (really is when your 1kk+$ budget game will fail just because there is an engineering problem). And if you don't have resources to ask/communicate than just use something like https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx/ https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx/ which is an awesome API agnostic rendering library.
        shmerl 10y ago
        > OpenGL on top of whatever GAPI is on target platform is usually <100 KLOC, so completely possible to write your own What would be the point for them to use the benefit of cross platform API, if they need to write their own? It won't be any cheaper than using the existing lock-in.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    > Meaning of "AAA" is totally mixed up It makes me think of a big budget game made by a company that makes big budget games and primarily publishes them through mainstream channels. It makes me think "opposite of Indie". I don't think that there's an indisputable, unambiguous definition of either term.

by TillE 10y ago

> or any console produced by Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft I suspect that'll change. Sony and Microsoft are both using more or less standard AMD GPUs, and game (engine) developers will demand it.

pjmlp 10y ago

No, indies will demand it. AAA studios are doing quite fine with the current API that are even lower than Vulkan. Indies with FOSS background seem to have a hard time to grasp how the games industry works in terms of IP, technology stacks and outsourcing for platform ports.

shmerl 10y ago
That will change when pressure will grow. Same as ActiveX was driven out by standard Web technologies. Lock-in freaks will try to resist, but they can only delay it. > No, indies will demand it. > AAA studios are doing quite fine with the current API that are even lower than Vulkan. Meaning of "AAA" is totally mixed up, so there is no point to use this term without explaining what you mean. Indie might mean independent indeed, but what AAA stands for is completely ambiguous. You might mean projects with big budgets, but they can be independent as well (Star Citizen), so you can't use it as some universal category. For the reference Star Citizen is going to use Vulkan. Regardless of what "AAA" is supposed to mean, they will use whatever will cut their costs to do the job well enough. And cross platform options surely will, if they'll be available.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I see you all the time posting these Quixotic comments, then I get to attend GDC and see what everyone that matters in the industry actually thinks.
  - shmerl 10y ago
    I see you still are a fan of lock-in. Calling it "fine" and saying that's how it's supposed to be is not helpful. "Industry" which thinks backwards doesn't need to be shown as an example. It's not the "industry", it's monopolistic participants who use lock-in to control the market. Progress is driven by competition, not by monopolistic lock-in stagnation.
    - cobalt 10y ago
      most companies have and will just port it to different platforms, using the api that gives them the most performance. It's hardly lock-in
      - shmerl 10y ago
        > most companies have and will just port it to different platforms, using the api that gives them the most performance Yes, when they have a choice and resources. It's not even the case here. I.e. it's not like developers simply prefer lock-in when dealing with some of the walled garden platforms. They simply have no choice - the likes of MS, Sony and others don't leave them that choice. It's not a discussion on technical merits. You could use your logic if developers could actually choose.
        dmytroi 10y ago
        Of course they do, but under NDA, just ask. OpenGL on top of whatever GAPI is on target platform is usually <100 KLOC, so completely possible to write your own if you REALLY need to (really is when your 1kk+$ budget game will fail just because there is an engineering problem). And if you don't have resources to ask/communicate than just use something like https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx/ https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx/ which is an awesome API agnostic rendering library.
        shmerl 10y ago
        > OpenGL on top of whatever GAPI is on target platform is usually <100 KLOC, so completely possible to write your own What would be the point for them to use the benefit of cross platform API, if they need to write their own? It won't be any cheaper than using the existing lock-in.
- khedoros 10y ago
  > Meaning of "AAA" is totally mixed up It makes me think of a big budget game made by a company that makes big budget games and primarily publishes them through mainstream channels. It makes me think "opposite of Indie". I don't think that there's an indisputable, unambiguous definition of either term.