6 ms·

Tor veteran exits, shuts down critical 'Tonga' node and relays

115 points by lensi 10y ago

elcapitan 10y ago
How is a scheduled shutdown (2016-08-31) a "torpedoing"?
- cldellow 10y ago
  The Register, in the tradition of British rags, uses somewhat hyperbolic/clickbaity headlines. You'll note that torpedoing isn't used in the copy, just the heading. I agree, though; for someone who (a) is a volunteer and (b) is doing it because he dislikes the direction of the organization, this is a remarkably civil disentangling.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Yeah, people need to keep in mind that the sites slogan is "biting the hand that feeds IT". After all, it is the current home of the BOFH series.
- tezza 10y ago
  It is Alliterative Tor Torpedoes Tonga Perhaps they could've even gone further Top Torian Torpedoes Tonga Tech
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    In Timultaneous Texit?
  - elcapitan 10y ago
    "Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      I'm afraid I read this in the voice of Pontius Pilate from the Life of Brian... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0cqxJElqA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0cqxJElqA
- makomk 10y ago
  It's the Register, they're a tabloid. Though giving one month's notice of shutting down a major and as far as I can tell unique part of the Tor infrastructure is pretty major.
code_research 10y ago
what events? It would be great if he spoke openly, so people not following tor very intensively would know what is so concerning. Yes, I am living under a rock.
- busterarm 10y ago
  I am too. Very curious what he means here. His message is vague as hell.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  There's no event clearly referenced here. The Appelbaum crisis is the most recent public drama, but that's mostly a settled matter and a fall has already been taken for it. It would be fairly strange to do this now over that incident. Given which, it looks like someone involved with a privacy project is refusing to disclose their motives for shutdown, but also shutting down slowly and openly, the way you wouldn't if someone was knocking on your door. This is an ambiguous outcome to almost everyone.
  - Torgo 10y ago
    >It would be fairly strange to do this now over that incident. It wouldn't be strange if you thought the accusations were bullshit.
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      That's an interesting point - it hadn't actually occurred to me that this could be a reaction to the reaction. That would fit the timing (and maybe the ambiguity) much better than reacting to the original topic.
- njharman 10y ago
  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/14/tor_board_replaces_itself/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/14/tor_board_replaces_i...
forgottenpass 10y ago
Appelbaum and the board are out. So now I'm curious. What about recent events have transpired in a way that he has to cut ties? Does the organization still housecleaning to do? The Tor leadership jumped on the grenade, presumably clearing the area for everyone else. Is there an entirely different angle that I'm missing? Because that vague of a post only implies one.
- jononor 10y ago
  Any risk that a coup or plant was brought in by the housecleaning? (honestly asked, I have no clue whatsover)
mcherm 10y ago
In a project focused on privacy, vague unclear statements of this sort convey a certain implication. There is, of course, no way to be sure what is intended, and that is rather the point.
- rdl 10y ago
  If it were anything security-critical it wouldn't be happening over a month in the future.
chillydawg 10y ago
Maybe he's being sued by the NSA for data and his only "ethical" choice is to just shut it down and walk away, since he'll have been gagged by them in the same suit.
the_duke 10y ago
To me, this feels a lot like what transpired with https://lavabit.com/ https://lavabit.com/. Of course, that was a service operated by a company, not a open source software and a distributed network, but there might be paralells. If you haven't read about it, read the post mortem on the Lavabit page. To me, it's very likely that the government demanded backdoors in TOR code itself, or backdoor access to critical TOR infrastructure (bridge nodes, directory authority, large exit nodes, ...), all under gag orders that forbid any mention of this to the public. Probably in the interest of 'national security'. Can't be sure, of course, but I would not feel comfortable with using TOR for anything sensitive anymore.
- fweespeech 10y ago
  Tbh, it sounds likely given he runs a number of exit nodes + a hard coded, trusted authority. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of suits leaned on him to "cooperate". That said, iirc, as long as you own your entry node and its a public node...Tor remains secure since the only successful attacks have all required someone to be in control of the entry node you use to connect to the Tor network (at least, the attacks intended to expose end users).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- xyience 10y ago
  Maybe some fingers of the government are demanding a backdoor, but other fingers of the government want tor to be as secure as possible. Tor is useful for the operations of national intelligence agents, too, and can only maintain that use when they know it doesn't have a backdoor which say the Chinese could then discover and exploit.
  - chocolatebunny 10y ago
    puts on tinfoil hat Is it possible that maybe the US military have gone on to alternative methods of hiding their identity. If the NSA can mandate backdoor access to every data centre in the country then couldn't they work with the military to use those backdoors to hide their own identities. To an observer it looks like someone is accessing Google but in actuality it's a CIA field agent sending top secret information to the Pentagon using a backdoor in a Google data centre.
chunkyslink 10y ago
So what TOR alternatives are there? I came across this on here I think a few weeks back http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/99859 http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/99859 but I'm not sure it is up and running or even if it is.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  I2P and Freenet are the big ones.
justin_vanw 10y ago
Since he considers it not ethical to continue, my guess is that there is some kind of government action attempting to force them to sniff or backdoor the service. As for why he is announcing he is shutting it down rather than just pulling the plug, pulling the plug may well be considered obstruction of justice, but just refusing to donate materially can't be prevented by the government. It may well be that lawyers have advised him that by announcing his decision to not participate it gives the government reasonable notice to be able to find an alternative or take some action, and counting on there being no practical way for the government to respond without revealing that they are involved. Edit: It may also be possible that he has become aware of a 'looming' threat to de-anonymize the service but can't speak of it, and he is announcing that he is pulling out since if he is subsequently compelled not to pull out it will act as a canary.
jlgaddis 10y ago
All the rampant speculation in this discussion serves no good purpose and is more harmful than helpful.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  What about meaningless comments such as yours with neither information nor speculation? Do they serve a purpose? I personally like reading comments even if they are speculative, as I am interested but not an expert.

115 points by lensi 10y ago

elcapitan 10y ago

How is a scheduled shutdown (2016-08-31) a "torpedoing"?

cldellow 10y ago
The Register, in the tradition of British rags, uses somewhat hyperbolic/clickbaity headlines. You'll note that torpedoing isn't used in the copy, just the heading. I agree, though; for someone who (a) is a volunteer and (b) is doing it because he dislikes the direction of the organization, this is a remarkably civil disentangling.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Yeah, people need to keep in mind that the sites slogan is "biting the hand that feeds IT". After all, it is the current home of the BOFH series.
tezza 10y ago
It is Alliterative Tor Torpedoes Tonga Perhaps they could've even gone further Top Torian Torpedoes Tonga Tech
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  In Timultaneous Texit?
- elcapitan 10y ago
  "Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I'm afraid I read this in the voice of Pontius Pilate from the Life of Brian... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0cqxJElqA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0cqxJElqA
makomk 10y ago
It's the Register, they're a tabloid. Though giving one month's notice of shutting down a major and as far as I can tell unique part of the Tor infrastructure is pretty major.

code_research 10y ago

what events? It would be great if he spoke openly, so people not following tor very intensively would know what is so concerning. Yes, I am living under a rock.

busterarm 10y ago
I am too. Very curious what he means here. His message is vague as hell.
Bartweiss 10y ago
There's no event clearly referenced here. The Appelbaum crisis is the most recent public drama, but that's mostly a settled matter and a fall has already been taken for it. It would be fairly strange to do this now over that incident. Given which, it looks like someone involved with a privacy project is refusing to disclose their motives for shutdown, but also shutting down slowly and openly, the way you wouldn't if someone was knocking on your door. This is an ambiguous outcome to almost everyone.
- Torgo 10y ago
  >It would be fairly strange to do this now over that incident. It wouldn't be strange if you thought the accusations were bullshit.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    That's an interesting point - it hadn't actually occurred to me that this could be a reaction to the reaction. That would fit the timing (and maybe the ambiguity) much better than reacting to the original topic.
njharman 10y ago
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/14/tor_board_replaces_itself/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/14/tor_board_replaces_i...

forgottenpass 10y ago

Appelbaum and the board are out. So now I'm curious. What about recent events have transpired in a way that he has to cut ties? Does the organization still housecleaning to do? The Tor leadership jumped on the grenade, presumably clearing the area for everyone else. Is there an entirely different angle that I'm missing? Because that vague of a post only implies one.

jononor 10y ago
Any risk that a coup or plant was brought in by the housecleaning? (honestly asked, I have no clue whatsover)

mcherm 10y ago

In a project focused on privacy, vague unclear statements of this sort convey a certain implication. There is, of course, no way to be sure what is intended, and that is rather the point.

rdl 10y ago
If it were anything security-critical it wouldn't be happening over a month in the future.

chillydawg 10y ago

Maybe he's being sued by the NSA for data and his only "ethical" choice is to just shut it down and walk away, since he'll have been gagged by them in the same suit.

the_duke 10y ago

To me, this feels a lot like what transpired with https://lavabit.com/ https://lavabit.com/. Of course, that was a service operated by a company, not a open source software and a distributed network, but there might be paralells. If you haven't read about it, read the post mortem on the Lavabit page. To me, it's very likely that the government demanded backdoors in TOR code itself, or backdoor access to critical TOR infrastructure (bridge nodes, directory authority, large exit nodes, ...), all under gag orders that forbid any mention of this to the public. Probably in the interest of 'national security'. Can't be sure, of course, but I would not feel comfortable with using TOR for anything sensitive anymore.

fweespeech 10y ago
Tbh, it sounds likely given he runs a number of exit nodes + a hard coded, trusted authority. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of suits leaned on him to "cooperate". That said, iirc, as long as you own your entry node and its a public node...Tor remains secure since the only successful attacks have all required someone to be in control of the entry node you use to connect to the Tor network (at least, the attacks intended to expose end users).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
xyience 10y ago
Maybe some fingers of the government are demanding a backdoor, but other fingers of the government want tor to be as secure as possible. Tor is useful for the operations of national intelligence agents, too, and can only maintain that use when they know it doesn't have a backdoor which say the Chinese could then discover and exploit.
- chocolatebunny 10y ago
  puts on tinfoil hat Is it possible that maybe the US military have gone on to alternative methods of hiding their identity. If the NSA can mandate backdoor access to every data centre in the country then couldn't they work with the military to use those backdoors to hide their own identities. To an observer it looks like someone is accessing Google but in actuality it's a CIA field agent sending top secret information to the Pentagon using a backdoor in a Google data centre.

chunkyslink 10y ago

So what TOR alternatives are there? I came across this on here I think a few weeks back http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/99859 http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/99859 but I'm not sure it is up and running or even if it is.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
I2P and Freenet are the big ones.

justin_vanw 10y ago

Since he considers it not ethical to continue, my guess is that there is some kind of government action attempting to force them to sniff or backdoor the service. As for why he is announcing he is shutting it down rather than just pulling the plug, pulling the plug may well be considered obstruction of justice, but just refusing to donate materially can't be prevented by the government. It may well be that lawyers have advised him that by announcing his decision to not participate it gives the government reasonable notice to be able to find an alternative or take some action, and counting on there being no practical way for the government to respond without revealing that they are involved. Edit: It may also be possible that he has become aware of a 'looming' threat to de-anonymize the service but can't speak of it, and he is announcing that he is pulling out since if he is subsequently compelled not to pull out it will act as a canary.

jlgaddis 10y ago

All the rampant speculation in this discussion serves no good purpose and is more harmful than helpful.

brokenmachine 10y ago
What about meaningless comments such as yours with neither information nor speculation? Do they serve a purpose? I personally like reading comments even if they are speculative, as I am interested but not an expert.