4 ms·

> Meanwhile, Firefox Sync encrypts your data with a password-derived key Didn't they drop it like 9months ago and moved to Firefox Sync?

by akerro 10y ago

Sylos 10y ago
About 2 years ago they started moving from randomly generated keys to the e-mail+password approach. Do you mean that? https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2014/02/07/a-better-firefox-sync/ https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2014/02/07/a-better-firefo... The new system is still end-to-end-encrypted, though...
- akerro 10y ago
  I think that's what I meant. Why is the new system better than the old one? There was a lot of FUD on reddit around it and I stopped following the news. Thanks for update.
  - zimbatm 10y ago
    The line of thinking was that people are used to email+password (as oppose to what was before). I think that was the right move. The system is still end-to-end encrypted, if you reset your password it will also reset the storage (by definition).
    - crottypeter 10y ago
      > reset the storage Does that mean you lose your history when you change your password? Or just that you need to use the new password to access (old and new) data?
      - Sylos 10y ago
        You lose the data that's stored on Mozilla's server, but since it's a synchronization service, you should have a complete local (unencrypted) copy which can then just be encrypted with the new key and re-uploaded to their server.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
bad_user 10y ago
The new system, Firefox Sync, is the one that encrypts your history with a password-derived key, by means of HKDF. Mozilla cannot decrypt and read your data.
- wtbob 10y ago
  > Mozilla cannot decrypt and read your data. Completely false: they can if they want to. All they have to do is serve a new login page to you which transmits your password as well as the derived key. They control the login page, they control the JavaScript which derives the key. They can do it at any time, invisibly. This is different from trusting them to make a trustworthy browser, because you download the browser once, while you may download the login page and associated JavaScript every time you login. They could target you, or all of their users, just once, or for a limited amount of time; unless you inspect the HTML & JavaScript source every single time you use your Firefox account you cannot be certain that they aren't being evil. Firefox Sync is unacceptable for password — or any other private data — storage. This is a pity, since the old protocol was very suitable.
  - bad_user 10y ago
    > the old protocol was very suitable It wasn't, because I've managed to lose my history with it. I very much prefer my history to be synchronized to a server I cannot lose. If your objection is not about cloud storage, then your objection isn't about the protocol, but its implementation (e.g. usage of HTML/Javascript): https://github.com/mozilla/fxa-auth-server/wiki/onepw-protocol https://github.com/mozilla/fxa-auth-server/wiki/onepw-protoc... > you download the browser once That's not true. Modern browsers are set to upgrade automatically in the background, without notifying the user. If you're paranoid, you can self-host your own Sync server, but then if you don't trust the vendor of your browser, then you've got bigger problems and I hope you're compiling your own binaries.
    - wtbob 10y ago
      > Modern browsers are set to upgrade automatically in the background, without notifying the user. My browser isn't; I use the Debian Firefox package and update it on my schedule. > If you're paranoid, you can self-host your own Sync server Only if you host it locally; if you host it at a VPS/dedicated-system provider then you're trusting that provider never to break into your system. It's bad social hygiene to develop systems which are breakable.

> Meanwhile, Firefox Sync encrypts your data with a password-derived key Didn't they drop it like 9months ago and moved to Firefox Sync?

by akerro 10y ago

> Meanwhile, Firefox Sync encrypts your data with a password-derived key Didn't they drop it like 9months ago and moved to Firefox Sync?

Sylos 10y ago

About 2 years ago they started moving from randomly generated keys to the e-mail+password approach. Do you mean that? https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2014/02/07/a-better-firefox-sync/ https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2014/02/07/a-better-firefo... The new system is still end-to-end-encrypted, though...

akerro 10y ago
I think that's what I meant. Why is the new system better than the old one? There was a lot of FUD on reddit around it and I stopped following the news. Thanks for update.
- zimbatm 10y ago
  The line of thinking was that people are used to email+password (as oppose to what was before). I think that was the right move. The system is still end-to-end encrypted, if you reset your password it will also reset the storage (by definition).
  - crottypeter 10y ago
    > reset the storage Does that mean you lose your history when you change your password? Or just that you need to use the new password to access (old and new) data?
    - Sylos 10y ago
      You lose the data that's stored on Mozilla's server, but since it's a synchronization service, you should have a complete local (unencrypted) copy which can then just be encrypted with the new key and re-uploaded to their server.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

bad_user 10y ago

The new system, Firefox Sync, is the one that encrypts your history with a password-derived key, by means of HKDF. Mozilla cannot decrypt and read your data.

wtbob 10y ago
> Mozilla cannot decrypt and read your data. Completely false: they can if they want to. All they have to do is serve a new login page to you which transmits your password as well as the derived key. They control the login page, they control the JavaScript which derives the key. They can do it at any time, invisibly. This is different from trusting them to make a trustworthy browser, because you download the browser once, while you may download the login page and associated JavaScript every time you login. They could target you, or all of their users, just once, or for a limited amount of time; unless you inspect the HTML & JavaScript source every single time you use your Firefox account you cannot be certain that they aren't being evil. Firefox Sync is unacceptable for password — or any other private data — storage. This is a pity, since the old protocol was very suitable.
- bad_user 10y ago
  > the old protocol was very suitable It wasn't, because I've managed to lose my history with it. I very much prefer my history to be synchronized to a server I cannot lose. If your objection is not about cloud storage, then your objection isn't about the protocol, but its implementation (e.g. usage of HTML/Javascript): https://github.com/mozilla/fxa-auth-server/wiki/onepw-protocol https://github.com/mozilla/fxa-auth-server/wiki/onepw-protoc... > you download the browser once That's not true. Modern browsers are set to upgrade automatically in the background, without notifying the user. If you're paranoid, you can self-host your own Sync server, but then if you don't trust the vendor of your browser, then you've got bigger problems and I hope you're compiling your own binaries.
  - wtbob 10y ago
    > Modern browsers are set to upgrade automatically in the background, without notifying the user. My browser isn't; I use the Debian Firefox package and update it on my schedule. > If you're paranoid, you can self-host your own Sync server Only if you host it locally; if you host it at a VPS/dedicated-system provider then you're trusting that provider never to break into your system. It's bad social hygiene to develop systems which are breakable.