4 ms·

The unfortunate fact is that government officials, whether at the DOJ, the FBI, or any other agency have absolutely no incentive to follow either the letter or

The unfortunate fact is that government officials, whether at the DOJ, the FBI, or any other agency have absolutely no incentive to follow either the letter or the spirit of the law. There are never any consequences for the individual government employees who break the law, so there is no reason for them to follow it. What's worse is that the only government officials who are ever held accountable for violations of law or policy are whistleblowers who shine light on wrongdoing. When the law ceases to be a social contract under which we all agree to operate and be equally judged it loses its moral authority. Without moral authority law carries no more weight then the threats of violence wielded by those with the most power and society falls apart.

x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
> When the law ceases to be a social contract Law has never and will likely never be a social contract. It is always enforced with violence, which encourages compliance. Give up Hobbes' misguided concept already as it will never help you make predictions about or explanations for how people behave.
- Dr_tldr 10y ago
  In order to be effectively condescending, you'll need at least a 9th grade level of knowledge on the topic. That you were able to mix up two very different theorists (possibly 3 if you were thinking of Rousseau) implies you're not actually very familiar with any of them. I'm assigning you this, have it done by Friday: http://www.cresskillboe.k12.nj.us/cresskill/Schools/Cresskill%20High%20School/Teacher%20Websites/Kline,%20Stephen/World%20History/Hobbes%20and%20Locke%20Essay.pdf http://www.cresskillboe.k12.nj.us/cresskill/Schools/Cresskil...
  - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
    I did not mix up any theorists. Hobbes wrote about the social contract ~100 years before Rousseau did and 30 years before Locke. For all intents and purposes he invented the concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract#Thomas_Hobbes.27_Leviathan_.281651.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract#Thomas_Hobbes....
    - Dr_tldr 10y ago
      Hobbes whole point is that the state is created and maintained through a monopoly on the use of force primarily by means of force, aka violence, so that wouldn't make any sense in the context of what you said. Still, I'm glad you read the wikipedia page: B+ for effort.
      - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
        Hobbes wrote about contracts and tried to shoehorn the concept into the realm of political legitimacy. The framing of political legitimacy in the context of contracts is clearly misleading and is about as useful in modern political dialogue as phrenology is to neuroscience. Regardless of the differences between Locke and Hobbes, the terminology only serves to obfuscate the forces at play.
jacquesm 10y ago
I've been on the receiving end of some of this at some point in my life and I'm happy to report that suing the government (to be specific, the Queen) in NL actually works and you can win. It will cost you some money and some time but given a good lawyer it is definitely possible to hold government officials accountable.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  I'm looking for a new FOIA lawyer - would you be willing to share the details for yours? (I'm in IL)
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    I'm in NL, so I don't see what good that would do.
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      Oh, derp. I'm stuck in travel exhaustion and read that wrong. :)
  - Asparagirl 10y ago
    You should direct this question to the good people on the FOI-L listserve: https://listserv.syr.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A0=FOI-L https://listserv.syr.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A0=FOI-L That being said, if anyone wants a New York FOIL attorney, particularly if you're dealing with a stubborn NYC bureaucracy like the NYPD, I can recommend the firm Rankin & Taylor: http://drmtlaw.com http://drmtlaw.com
asdfologist 10y ago
False. Please stop spreading falsehoods without doing some basic research. It took me < 10 seconds of Googling to find many counterexamples to your claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_state_and_local_politicians_convicted_of_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_state_and_loc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_polit...
- bpchaps 10y ago
  Heh. A few examples means jack. I can give you tons of personal examples where it's true. It's mostly just a matter of how patient you are in filing a suit or pursuing with an AG. That takes months, and more often than not it's not worth it. It's incredibly frustrating and extremely sad on so many levels. I seriously doubt you've submitted a FOIA request or else you wouldn't have responded that way. Go submit one and you'll see. Edit: The linked article is actually similar to a lawsuit I would like to raise. A lack of technical knowledge can stop a technical request in its tracks without resorting to escalating the issue. Calling, emailing, leaving voicemail very often leads nowhere in just explaining what a domain name and becomes very mind numbing when that obstinate ignorance leads to a rejection.
- dublinben 10y ago
  Find a single one of them who was convicted of breaking the applicable public records law. These laws can be a powerful tool for government transparency, but only when they are actually enforced.
  - asdfologist 10y ago
    The parent wasn't making claims about the public records law in particular. He said "There are never any consequences for the individual government employees who break the law".
    - jaredklewis 10y ago
      Ok, but I think you are being kind of picky. We are having a discussion about an article which alleges willful obstruction of FOIA requests by government employees. I think it's clear in this context the comment is not talking about murder, securities fraud, or what have you.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
...And people start to take sniping cops as a given pastime.

x3n0ph3n3 10y ago

> When the law ceases to be a social contract Law has never and will likely never be a social contract. It is always enforced with violence, which encourages compliance. Give up Hobbes' misguided concept already as it will never help you make predictions about or explanations for how people behave.

Dr_tldr 10y ago
In order to be effectively condescending, you'll need at least a 9th grade level of knowledge on the topic. That you were able to mix up two very different theorists (possibly 3 if you were thinking of Rousseau) implies you're not actually very familiar with any of them. I'm assigning you this, have it done by Friday: http://www.cresskillboe.k12.nj.us/cresskill/Schools/Cresskill%20High%20School/Teacher%20Websites/Kline,%20Stephen/World%20History/Hobbes%20and%20Locke%20Essay.pdf http://www.cresskillboe.k12.nj.us/cresskill/Schools/Cresskil...
- x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
  I did not mix up any theorists. Hobbes wrote about the social contract ~100 years before Rousseau did and 30 years before Locke. For all intents and purposes he invented the concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract#Thomas_Hobbes.27_Leviathan_.281651.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract#Thomas_Hobbes....
  - Dr_tldr 10y ago
    Hobbes whole point is that the state is created and maintained through a monopoly on the use of force primarily by means of force, aka violence, so that wouldn't make any sense in the context of what you said. Still, I'm glad you read the wikipedia page: B+ for effort.
    - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
      Hobbes wrote about contracts and tried to shoehorn the concept into the realm of political legitimacy. The framing of political legitimacy in the context of contracts is clearly misleading and is about as useful in modern political dialogue as phrenology is to neuroscience. Regardless of the differences between Locke and Hobbes, the terminology only serves to obfuscate the forces at play.

jacquesm 10y ago

I've been on the receiving end of some of this at some point in my life and I'm happy to report that suing the government (to be specific, the Queen) in NL actually works and you can win. It will cost you some money and some time but given a good lawyer it is definitely possible to hold government officials accountable.

bpchaps 10y ago
I'm looking for a new FOIA lawyer - would you be willing to share the details for yours? (I'm in IL)
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I'm in NL, so I don't see what good that would do.
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    Oh, derp. I'm stuck in travel exhaustion and read that wrong. :)
- Asparagirl 10y ago
  You should direct this question to the good people on the FOI-L listserve: https://listserv.syr.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A0=FOI-L https://listserv.syr.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A0=FOI-L That being said, if anyone wants a New York FOIL attorney, particularly if you're dealing with a stubborn NYC bureaucracy like the NYPD, I can recommend the firm Rankin & Taylor: http://drmtlaw.com http://drmtlaw.com

asdfologist 10y ago

False. Please stop spreading falsehoods without doing some basic research. It took me < 10 seconds of Googling to find many counterexamples to your claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_state_and_local_politicians_convicted_of_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_state_and_loc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_polit...

bpchaps 10y ago
Heh. A few examples means jack. I can give you tons of personal examples where it's true. It's mostly just a matter of how patient you are in filing a suit or pursuing with an AG. That takes months, and more often than not it's not worth it. It's incredibly frustrating and extremely sad on so many levels. I seriously doubt you've submitted a FOIA request or else you wouldn't have responded that way. Go submit one and you'll see. Edit: The linked article is actually similar to a lawsuit I would like to raise. A lack of technical knowledge can stop a technical request in its tracks without resorting to escalating the issue. Calling, emailing, leaving voicemail very often leads nowhere in just explaining what a domain name and becomes very mind numbing when that obstinate ignorance leads to a rejection.
dublinben 10y ago
Find a single one of them who was convicted of breaking the applicable public records law. These laws can be a powerful tool for government transparency, but only when they are actually enforced.
- asdfologist 10y ago
  The parent wasn't making claims about the public records law in particular. He said "There are never any consequences for the individual government employees who break the law".
  - jaredklewis 10y ago
    Ok, but I think you are being kind of picky. We are having a discussion about an article which alleges willful obstruction of FOIA requests by government employees. I think it's clear in this context the comment is not talking about murder, securities fraud, or what have you.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

...And people start to take sniping cops as a given pastime.