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Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows

by garply 17y ago

Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows what Google is.

potatolicious 17y ago
I went to college with a large number of Chinese international students, my ex-gf was Chinese (and thus my circles are full of them), plus I am Chinese (well, Taiwanese, but shhh) Most internet users in China are well aware of who Google is - though Baidu still has a strong grip on the search industry than ol' Goog. The overwhelming opinion I got from the Chinese I know when this issue first surfaced in January was "good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". Remember, the younger generation in China right now almost religiously, dogmatically believe in the party line. It's frightful.
- garply 17y ago
  I live and run a business here in Beijing. The majority of my customers are young adult mainlanders (white collar, 18-35 years old) and my employees are mainlanders as well. Also my girlfriend of 6+ years. I don't find any of what you say to be true. Especially the part about religious and dogmatic belief in the party line - most of the Chinese I deal with find the gov't obnoxious and untrustworthy. Of course, that could vary with socioeconomic class, but even my relatively young workers, who are of a different social group than my customers, seem to feel that way as well (poison milk, bribery scandals, etc). In my experience, the people who are supportive of the party are usually older (40-50+). Odd that our experiences are so different, and I'm not sure where we'll be able to find objective data to resolve the differences in information.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    I think the different experiences comes down to socioeconomic status - my impression comes from Chinese expats, in particular international students. This demographic is best summed up in a single word: "over-privileged" These are the direct beneficiaries of the current regime, and I even personally knew a couple whose parents were unabashedly in the bribery business. They all tow the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S I'm glad to hear that "normal" Chinese aren't nearly as bad as the ones I've met. This gives me hope. About the poison milk/bribery stuff though: even the people I know don't agree with these things, and are more than willing to admit the government's failure in preventing these things. However, if you dare bring up Western-style agricultural/industrial policies as a means to mitigate this sort of thing, you are in for some major hostility. This may be unique to the demographic I talk to, but basically only they are allowed to criticize the Chinese government - if you represent some kind of western ideology you're frowned upon.
    - garply 17y ago
      But I don't think it's an issue of socioeconomic status. My point in mentioning my business was that I need to understand my demographic very thoroughly (I work 7 days a week catering to their needs). Many of my customers have studied abroad and most of them work in the Central Business District here for large multinational corporations. My demographic also includes students at elite Chinese universities like Beida and Qinghua. And I have yet to encounter what you are describing among them. Maybe the closest is one guy who wanted to climb the CCP ranks to change all the problems he saw with the current system.
    - sliverstorm 17y ago
      > They all toe the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S You are surprised by this? I'd be surprised if it wasn't like this. It's the party that will be getting them into leadership roles; of course they will support it with everything they have.
    - analyst74 17y ago
      Maybe the way you criticize triggered their defensive reaction? I was an international student myself and have no problem criticizing the government with my friends (Chinese or otherwise). But if someone comes in with harsh tone, I will in all arms defending my country. And I find this common among citizens of most countries.
- zellux 17y ago
  I'm a college student in Shanghai, and my classmates and friends' attitude towards the party is almost opposite to what you said, I'm afraid. As to what other people say in Xiaonei, which is a site I'll visit everyday, many people there are complaining about the network censorship in China. On the other side, it's also a site censored by the government, which means users' comments, blogs and updates will soon be deleted if they contain illegal keywords. It doesn't allow free speech at all. So what you see may not represent the majority. On the other hand, many of us has access to twitter, using SSH tunnel/API/proxy or something else to jump over the wall. And what you see on twitter may differ greatly on what you see in Xiaonei. Sorry for my poor English :P
  - sliverstorm 17y ago
    Your English is just fine, essentially indistinguishable from native speakers :)
  - chrischen 17y ago
    I've seen the same thing. My cousin's friend (Chinese) who is in Canada for school acknowledges the Chinese gov't has problems, but is even more anti-west. And from what I've seen on the internet (www.chinasmack.com) the "netizens" don't see the chinese government favorably either.
  - lhuang 17y ago
    This is misleading. Among the posh, well-educated elites who aspire for jobs at US MNCs this may be true. The rest of the masses are very much one-sided in support of the CCP. At the very least, even if they are sympathetic to Google's cause, at the end of the day the masses will always believe that China (and the CCP by extension) > Google (or any other western MNC). That is the reality for the vast majority of Chinese - both online or otherwise. The China vs Google issue is not really about internet freedoms in the eyes of the polity as it is in the eyes of westerners. Rather, its about a western MNC trying to "bully" the Chinese into adopting their (western) values. This line of thinking; westerners bullying China has been pounded by the CCP for the past 60 years so its very easy to troll that line to great success.
- Retric 17y ago
  The degree to which people inside China complain about the government seems to more closely relate to how much they trust you than their station in life.
- dusklight 17y ago
  As far as being "anti-west" goes, can you elaborate on what specific western values/beliefs/policies the younger chinese are against?

by garply 17y ago

Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows what Google is.

potatolicious 17y ago

I went to college with a large number of Chinese international students, my ex-gf was Chinese (and thus my circles are full of them), plus I am Chinese (well, Taiwanese, but shhh) Most internet users in China are well aware of who Google is - though Baidu still has a strong grip on the search industry than ol' Goog. The overwhelming opinion I got from the Chinese I know when this issue first surfaced in January was "good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". Remember, the younger generation in China right now almost religiously, dogmatically believe in the party line. It's frightful.

garply 17y ago
I live and run a business here in Beijing. The majority of my customers are young adult mainlanders (white collar, 18-35 years old) and my employees are mainlanders as well. Also my girlfriend of 6+ years. I don't find any of what you say to be true. Especially the part about religious and dogmatic belief in the party line - most of the Chinese I deal with find the gov't obnoxious and untrustworthy. Of course, that could vary with socioeconomic class, but even my relatively young workers, who are of a different social group than my customers, seem to feel that way as well (poison milk, bribery scandals, etc). In my experience, the people who are supportive of the party are usually older (40-50+). Odd that our experiences are so different, and I'm not sure where we'll be able to find objective data to resolve the differences in information.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  I think the different experiences comes down to socioeconomic status - my impression comes from Chinese expats, in particular international students. This demographic is best summed up in a single word: "over-privileged" These are the direct beneficiaries of the current regime, and I even personally knew a couple whose parents were unabashedly in the bribery business. They all tow the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S I'm glad to hear that "normal" Chinese aren't nearly as bad as the ones I've met. This gives me hope. About the poison milk/bribery stuff though: even the people I know don't agree with these things, and are more than willing to admit the government's failure in preventing these things. However, if you dare bring up Western-style agricultural/industrial policies as a means to mitigate this sort of thing, you are in for some major hostility. This may be unique to the demographic I talk to, but basically only they are allowed to criticize the Chinese government - if you represent some kind of western ideology you're frowned upon.
  - garply 17y ago
    But I don't think it's an issue of socioeconomic status. My point in mentioning my business was that I need to understand my demographic very thoroughly (I work 7 days a week catering to their needs). Many of my customers have studied abroad and most of them work in the Central Business District here for large multinational corporations. My demographic also includes students at elite Chinese universities like Beida and Qinghua. And I have yet to encounter what you are describing among them. Maybe the closest is one guy who wanted to climb the CCP ranks to change all the problems he saw with the current system.
  - sliverstorm 17y ago
    > They all toe the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S You are surprised by this? I'd be surprised if it wasn't like this. It's the party that will be getting them into leadership roles; of course they will support it with everything they have.
  - analyst74 17y ago
    Maybe the way you criticize triggered their defensive reaction? I was an international student myself and have no problem criticizing the government with my friends (Chinese or otherwise). But if someone comes in with harsh tone, I will in all arms defending my country. And I find this common among citizens of most countries.
zellux 17y ago
I'm a college student in Shanghai, and my classmates and friends' attitude towards the party is almost opposite to what you said, I'm afraid. As to what other people say in Xiaonei, which is a site I'll visit everyday, many people there are complaining about the network censorship in China. On the other side, it's also a site censored by the government, which means users' comments, blogs and updates will soon be deleted if they contain illegal keywords. It doesn't allow free speech at all. So what you see may not represent the majority. On the other hand, many of us has access to twitter, using SSH tunnel/API/proxy or something else to jump over the wall. And what you see on twitter may differ greatly on what you see in Xiaonei. Sorry for my poor English :P
- sliverstorm 17y ago
  Your English is just fine, essentially indistinguishable from native speakers :)
- chrischen 17y ago
  I've seen the same thing. My cousin's friend (Chinese) who is in Canada for school acknowledges the Chinese gov't has problems, but is even more anti-west. And from what I've seen on the internet (www.chinasmack.com) the "netizens" don't see the chinese government favorably either.
- lhuang 17y ago
  This is misleading. Among the posh, well-educated elites who aspire for jobs at US MNCs this may be true. The rest of the masses are very much one-sided in support of the CCP. At the very least, even if they are sympathetic to Google's cause, at the end of the day the masses will always believe that China (and the CCP by extension) > Google (or any other western MNC). That is the reality for the vast majority of Chinese - both online or otherwise. The China vs Google issue is not really about internet freedoms in the eyes of the polity as it is in the eyes of westerners. Rather, its about a western MNC trying to "bully" the Chinese into adopting their (western) values. This line of thinking; westerners bullying China has been pounded by the CCP for the past 60 years so its very easy to troll that line to great success.
Retric 17y ago
The degree to which people inside China complain about the government seems to more closely relate to how much they trust you than their station in life.
dusklight 17y ago
As far as being "anti-west" goes, can you elaborate on what specific western values/beliefs/policies the younger chinese are against?