8 ms·

How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

88 points by tim_sw 10y ago

jacquesm 10y ago
Fascinating, and worrisome. This paragraph jumped out at me because of the numbers involved: "Starting in 2012, 34 people went from Aarhus to Syria. As far as the police know, six were killed and 10 are still over there. Of the 18 who came back home, all showed up in Aarslev and Link's office, as did hundreds of other potential radicals in Aarhus — about 330 in total." If a small town like Aarhus harboured 34 people that joined ISIS and 330 potential radicals in total that does not bode well for the rest of Western Europe. Those numbers, when extrapolated make the problem a lot larger than I thought it was (and I actually thought I was over-estimating). Aarhus has a population of only ~320K, so that's 1:1000.
- toyg 10y ago
  Scandinavian countries host more refugees per capita than most nations on Earth, so that's probably why numbers look so high. Also, this sort of programs inevitably carry a physiological amount of fraud (problems affording a flat? Pick up the phone and declare yourself ex-jihadi...).
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Sweden, yes, they are very far from the norm in this, but Denmark is actually not that much different (or in fact, lower than) .de, .nl, .fr and quite a few other Western European countries. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_p... "Than most nations on Earth" is probably right though, but it's a bit of a weird metric because Denmark is more affluent than 'most nations on Earth' and also part of Europe, which tends to absorb a relatively large number of refugees when compared to other parts of the world. So it would be better to compare Denmark with the countries surrounding it.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Going to Syria isn't necessarily joining ISIS. There are many rebel groups, some directly fighting against ISIS.
  - calibraxis 10y ago
    Good point, I missed that. Among others, there's Rojava (feminist anarchists) vs. ISIS (fascist right-wing militia). Those two almost make Bernie Sanders & Donald Trump look identical.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    That's true, but it is a fairly small portion as far as I'm aware.
  - johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
    If you assume none of the ~30 that went to Syria joined IS, that leaves ~300 "of other potential radicals in Aarhus". That's an enormous amount of _potential_ harm even with low tech attacks like knives in crowds.
  - internaut 10y ago
    I keep hearing this and it does not comfort me much. Remember how the West had a problem with... The Taliban... then Al-Qaeda...... then ISIS.......... then ?? The names are changing but something else remains constant or is getting worse.
    - ameen 10y ago
      One constant factor is strife in the region. Provides a constant source of enraged youngsters seeking revenge after being hard done by an outsider (death in family, unemployment, living under an authoritarian govt, illiteracy, etc). This will continue until weapons need to be sold. Military Industrial complex is a thing and it needs blood to lubricate its wheels.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        There are plenty of other countries which are considerably poorer than the middle east. Circa 2010 Syria wasn't a "bad" place, the average income was greater than that say of India, it was about equal to that of Moldova and the Republic of Macedonia both which are both EU accession candidates. Syrians (and Saudis) who joined the insurgency in Iraq weren't disenfranchised infact they were from the elite, often dropping out of university to go and join the "cause". Osama Bin Laden who founded AQ was born into one of the richest families in the world, had higher education and really had no hard done to him by anyone. Europeans who join ISIS are mostly 2nd and 3rd generation "immigrants", often to mixed families and "fresh converts", they aren't particularly disenfranchised either. Geopolitics and economics do have a role in conflicts everywhere, but the sooner you stop blaming everything on people being poor, oppressed and "western expansionism" the sooner we might actually be able to start working on a solution. Last time I've checked Tibet is effectively poorer than Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the smaller gulf states (and I'm not counting the average which is skewed because of how the wealth is distributed) and it's quite objectively oppressed but I have yet to see Tibetans blowing up restaurants in China.
- Animats 10y ago
  Aarhus is the second-largest city in Denmark. Copenhagen is only ~562K. But still, that's a lot of people for what most countries consider a small city. "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That may not be a meaningful designation. Only about 1 in 10,000 tried to join ISIS. About 250 Americans have tried to join ISIS, says the FBI. That's about 1 in a million for the US. Around 100 made it to the battle zone. NBC has a profile of 15 of them.[1] [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-uncovered/americans-15-who-left-united-states-join-isis-n573611 http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-uncovered/americans-15...
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    > "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That oversimplifies a bit. You do not simply walk in a well adjusted individual and walk out a radical. If you check the background of all the people mentioned, i bet you that you will find history involving social services, trouble at school, possibly a rap sheet. Again and again, no matter if a person is muslim, christian, or something else entirely, the common denominator is that they feel themselves not fitting in with the society around them.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar. Having a different skin color, being ostracized by society for whatever reason, ignored by the girls the media suggest they should be interested in, it's not easy being a young male in any society. We used to have military service but that path is not without problems of its own.
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        "Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar." They are related but it would be wrong to equate them. One is an ideological movement with leaders, propaganda, formalized groups, $$$$, ethnic orientation and nationalism etc.. It would be like saying the Nazis were just a bunch of angry men. Obviously, they were that, but it wasn't the primary driver. ISIS, radical Salafism/Wahhabism etc. are organized forces.
- internaut 10y ago
  What is your solution to this? Not being sarcastic downvoter! I really want to know.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    You're not going to like it, and it's not much of a solution anyway. Time. Many generations and quite possibly civil war or outright war between nation states. Humanity does not have a very good track record when it comes to learning from the past, so we are set to repeat history a couple of more times before we get it right. Let's hope I'm wrong about this, but the rate at which all the stable parts of the world are de-stabilizing is uncanny. People keep pointing to studies that prove that the world is becoming less violent but I'm reminded of the sailors proverb that a real storm is preceded by a sense of calm.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      A interesting proverb, as it fits economics just as well as meteorology.
      - noobermin 10y ago
        Are you being sarcastic? I've never heard that it applies to demographic movements.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      No offense, but you are discounting studies for what sounds like your intuition, which I'd argue is the entire point about science, to better inform us against our biases. I'll take what science says over what the media hype is any day.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        You're more than welcome to. But there is a ton of evidence that the foundations of many societies are shifting and not for the better. That doesn't immediately reflect in the statistics (death tolls, crime rates) until a certain critical mass has been reached. Just like you can't tell a tsunami from a small wave visually until it reaches the shore. There isn't a country in Europe that has not moved substantially towards nationalism in the last decade or so. The foundations of Europe are being attacked and countries that were relatively stable (Turkey, Greece, Spain, UK) are all facing internal forces strong enough to change those countries in substantial ways. Then there is Ukraine (which is far from over) and Syria. All in all, 'science' is in this case mostly tallying up the dead a couple of years after the bodies hit the ground. It's lagging behind the curve considerably and it doesn't even log places like Iraq and Syria in those statistics because they are anomalies.
cyberferret 10y ago
A fascinating story, and a great initiative by the town police. The world needs more role models for non aggressive activism - we lack a Ghandi or MLK of our generation...
- mtgx 10y ago
  You mean someone that would argue against economic injustice, racism, violence, and had a decades old track record of doing so? (even to the point of marching with MLK himself) Yes, if only our generation had someone like that running for president in the US.
  - douche 10y ago
    Instead, we have people like that selling out to corrupt career politicians who can't say two sentences without lying through their teeth.
    - calibraxis 10y ago
      I get the impression that Jeremy Corbyn (in the UK) is much better than Bernie Sanders at helping build grassroots organizations that hopefully persist without him. I heard Bernie Sanders compared with Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition, whose energy & commitment faded away after Jackson wasn't elected. Same with Ralph Nader, apparently.
      - noobermin 10y ago
        It is a little too early to discount Sanders. Just because the media buzz around him isn't as strong doesn't mean many still don't respect him and he doesn't have influence amongst his supporters before he endorsed Clinton.
      - saboot 10y ago
        It is a bit early to count him out, he has made an announcement regarding setting up persistent organizations to support progressive down ballot candidates (dem or not). Hopefully it turns into something meaningful.
Mz 10y ago
Hearing a policeman take responsibility for his life getting derailed really moved Jamal. He agreed to come into Link's office. They are doing good work. This all fits with everything I have ever read about how to undermine extremism, radicalization, etc. Time does not tend to heal such wounds. It tends to make them fester. That doesn't mean they cannot be healed.
- noobermin 10y ago
  Unfortunately, this section is becoming a political thread while I feel like there is more to be said about psychology here. It feels unnatural especially to accept someone back when they've essentially fought against you. At worse, one would wonder if you embolden criminals when you do this. I think it comes down to motivation. If a criminal is say like a sadist rapist, giving him a hug after he rapes will just embolden him to commit more crime. That's because his motivations are due to internal forces/perversions. However, if someone is motivated like Jamal due to discrimination, the thing he wanted in the first place was acceptance, so accepting him leaves him with no reason to commit crime. Unfortunately, you can't read inside someone's head. Some people just want to be a Jihadist. Some want to see blood and kill. Some just want to belong. I think the best thing to do is to do both...help those who want to be helped and reach those who could be reached, and fight vehemently those who simply want glory or want to get their kicks. How do you know when or when not for this or that case? I guess you pay investigators a nice salary to figure that out because blanket policy is only so effective.
  - HappyFunGuy 10y ago
    We can read inside peoples heads. We call it listening. What people want is to feel important, some rape, some jihad, and some virtue signal. The overhead of even needing to measure or guess their real intention or state exceeds their lifetime value to the culture in comparison to the best viable alternative immigrant. You're cash negative even bothering to measure their riskiness.
  - Mz 10y ago
    This is something that can be studied. Social psychology. Negotiation and conflict resolution. Etc. I have had such classes. First, he reached out to him with his own agenda. Naturally, having been crapped on by so many people, the young man was suspicious. So, he apologized specifically for the role his own department had played in the ongoing tragedy of this guy's life. He did not just say "Sorry your life sucks." He distanced himself from the wrongdoing of the officers the guy had previously interacted with, showed that his agenda was not harmful, it was a good faith agenda. Then he hooked him up with a role model who could provide social proof that there was real hope that this could be resolved. He gave him a model for how to solve. He gave him an attractive alternative to becoming a terrorist. The young man did not previously have an attractive alternative. The article seriously simplified the process. Since this unit is successful in what it does, presumably they are more informed about the various pieces of this than whoever wrote the article. The forgive and forget model does not work. But this kid was turning bad largely due to bad things happening to him. He was mistreated by the police the first time. His pissed off remark at school should have never turned into so much trouble for him. To some extent, his second contact with the police redressed this wrong. The apology was not just empty words.
noobermin 10y ago
It seems like no one realizes that this is a audiocast. Yes it's an hour, but listening to NPR is the thing to do on Sundays!
HappyFunGuy 10y ago
This is a story about Somali Jamal in Denmark, who planned to join ISIS with his friends. But a cop called him, and apologized for uh.., thinking he might be a threat. So Jamal uh, changes his mind, but two of his buddies don't and die in Syria. So if you hug a terrorist, he might not want to kill you as much, maybe. You know who doesn't have this terrorist hugging problem? Japan.
- crishoj 10y ago
  Could you describe Japan's approach in greater detail?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - oldboyFX 10y ago
    Japanese society is one of the most ethnically, linguistically and culturally homogeneous societies in the world, composed of 98.5% ethnic Japanese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
  - d0mine 10y ago
    Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
- oldboyFX 10y ago
  It's because they're racist. Do you want to be racist like Japan or get BTFO'd? That's what I thought! edit: It's a (bad) joke.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "It's because they're racist. " Funny, Japan doesn't have a terrorism problem.
    - cup 10y ago
HappyFunGuy 10y ago
"How a Danish Town Helped 34 people who weren't Jamal join ISIS."
HappyFunGuy 10y ago
Hey anyone know if muslim population correlate with terror attacks, and if so, is it causative?
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  You're probably downvoted because of the difficulty some people have when the facts might possibly contradict their ideological motivations. It's a problem across the political spectrum. Nobody wants to know the truth. They want to push their narrative.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    It probably is a part of it but it's most likely because such heavily sarcastic comments that do not add to the discussion are usually down-voted, regardless of whether they should be taken seriously or not. Such is the standard on HN. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume since they are a newer user they don't know this.
    - HappyFunGuy 10y ago
      Hey appeal to tone guys, real stats? I for real do not have them.
    - jomamaxx 10y ago
      Well I don't think it's a sarcastic comment, and it's a perfectly valid inquisition.
  - oldboyFX 10y ago
    You're probably one of those racists like that Sam Harris guy! In all seriousness this kind of thing should be discussed more openly. I'm afraid that political correctness leads to nothing more than repressed bigotry. Better than open bigotry but less better than actually trying to solve the problem.
- ameen 10y ago
  When you say Muslim you're ignoring other important factors as well. All attackers in France were petty criminals who had prior convictions and poor human beings with a history of spousal abuse, alcoholism, etc.[1] They most likely were at the bottom of the economic strata weren't educated beyond school or had well paying jobs or opportunities. Seems more likely to be an issue of disillusioned youth making poor choices that hurt themselves and others. As a counterpoint to your supposed claim. Muslims do exist in large numbers in Singapore, yet they are allowed to work and are given equal opportunity and do contribute economically to the nation. [1] - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691895/He-drank-alcohol-ate-pork-took-drugs-NOT-Muslim-Truck-terrorist-Mohamed-Lahouaiej-Bouhlel-s-cousin-reveals-unlikely-jihadist-beat-wife-NEVER-went-mosque.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691895/He-drank-alc...
Kenji 10y ago
I love how it's always others being evil and 'discriminate' against the muslims that then become terrorists. Like, 'Those evil, evil westerners rejected him and did not appreciate his culture. That was the catalyst for him wanting to become a terrorist.' Imagine this: You go to a foreign country or are raised in a foreign culture (because things in your own country are horrible at the moment). You feel mistreated (even though they provide you with asylum and quite literally save your life and provide you with all you need), for example in a job or at school. This makes you feel like you have to kill people to make your point, and you have to be a terrorist, so you set out to wage this war. This is utter lunacy. This is not the spark for terrorism - a careless upbringing without proper values and with extremist ideologies is. Let me tell you something: Culture matters. A lot. Not race and not birthplace. But what you believe to be moral and true fundamentally shapes not only how you view the world but how you interact with it. What we need is moral education, a reform (enlightenment) in muslim culture and stop being apologist by blaming ourselves.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Let me guess - you've never been in a large group situation where you are seemingly accepted, but nearly everyone looks down upon you and treats you with constant suspicion and questions your motives and reminds you on a regular basis that you are different, and that you are lucky to be part of the group. Have you?
  - HappyFunGuy 10y ago
    Since you were obtuse in describing the "large groups situation" are you talking about fat kids? or fat adults? or nerds? Did you steal my cake? Or are you trying to talk about race? Or age? Dude, wtf are you talking about? Are you talking about being a minority? English. Speak it.
    - cyberferret 10y ago
      ALL the scenarios you mentioned above apply. The fact that you cannot seem to grasp that probably indicates that you are outside all of those groups, and have never experienced what I stated (in plain English) in my original post. Let me give you an example from my own experience - I am of sub-continental heritage, and my family migrated to Australia over 3 decades ago. It has been 99.999% a fantastic life and I embrace the great life and great people here. But a few years back there were a few high profile cases of young Indian men brutally raping women in India, and other places. The mass media latched onto this and immediately went into portraying any man of Indian descent as being a brutal rapist in waiting. I felt that societal change. Almost overnight, I noticed people move away from me when I entered a store. There was a measured difference in the hostility I experienced when talking to people I didn't know. Young women would cross the street when they saw me approach, and cross back after I had passed. Observing these changes DID cause a rage to boil up inside me. How could someone who didn't even know me as a person judge me by the actions of others. I had done everything I could to integrate and embrace this new world, but for the first time ever, I felt unwanted and that my presence was causing discomfort for those around me. It never got to the extent of projecting that hurt and anger at anyone else, nor would I, because that is not in my nature. Thankfully the media lost interest in that narrative fairly quickly, and people now treat me in an open friendly way as before. But if those negative perceptions were perpetually front and centre in the media, and I had to bear the brunt of it for an extended period then I really don't know how my ultimate reaction would have manifested itself.
HappyFunGuy 10y ago
It's a good thing this thread stuck with ISIS and terrorism in general, and not rape stats by hewho'snamecan'tbespoken, in the nordics, because that would really derail the topic, which is I guess quelling local extremism in youth by uh, what would you call this strategy? Hmm. Submission and apology?
juvinious 10y ago
I'm astounded at the lauded idea that these guys are radicalized or it is some unfortunate circumstance of Western (white) oppression. In all its wonderful building of the multicultural fabric, the west continues to paint with the wide stroke that all cultures are great and morally equivalent. Thus, when there is an attack from these 'poor disenfranchised' individuals upon our freedoms and people, the west is quick to attack everything but the true problem, which is Islam. I mean all we have to do is look at Mohammed to understand what it means to be a truly honest, moral and exemplary Muslim. ------ 9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ------
- frankquist 10y ago
  Why must it be either/or? One can critique (certain tenets of) Islamic thought, yet recognize that there's an interaction between the narrative an individual has about their life (i.e. I'm being disenfranchised) that interacts with their cultural/religious background, making them more prone to certain interpretations of their faith and more committed to these interpretations and their behavioral consequences. You can empathize with an individual that feels like an outcast while not necessarily making a positive moral judgment of their religion or their subjective interpretation of their own predicament. Without "appeasing them" (whatever that means). Nobody in the article you are replying to has made any argument about moral equivalence. To me, they seem to be mostly pragmatic and interested in preventing crime, and the article makes it seemingly effective. Generally I experience that wanting the world to be a certain way does not necessarily make it so. The act of judging Islam, does not necessarily transform it, or its followers. To sway people, you have to understand how they are swayed. I do not discount that some might be swayed by criticism, threat or use of force (i.e. dealing with potential extremists), but these are not necessarily the actions that have the best outcome. I think the "Aarhus model" is interesting in so far as that the officers involved seem to be pragmatical: hey, if we do this, then, in our experience and according to this science, we might very well achieve this certain desired outcome. So let's debate if that is true - instead of getting into this tiresome debate about how people need to be more negative about islam, which in no way I can ascertain contributes to change. I do not believe in the "debate model of change": that people change when they "lose" a debate, and therefore we must all be voracious in our judgment of those people. The model seems to say: if only the entire western world voiced, in harmonic unison, this grand thesis that Islam itself is the problem, by sheer force of this combined act of judgment, the Islamic world would think "dude, I really think these people are on to something. They are right" and cast off their shackles and their cultural heritage. In fact, I find the model frightening because it says: "unless you join me in disparaging another people's culture, you are part of the problem". Which makes it impossible to have a debate on how to engage with people, because somehow engaging with them is seen as appeasement or agreeing with them (I can empathize with someone I do not agree with). Which limits the options we have in pragmatically working on changing our world: by engaging those people that are problematic, trying to find out why they think a certain way, and intervene in a way that maximises effect. "In order to be involved in, or be a guide to, the transforming of the present into the future state - the essence of our work - one must have the skill to do this in such a way that the object with which one is working is not violated, but is transformed according its own laws" - Kaplan EDITED to add: If I interpret you correctly, your argument is that these youngsters are not radicalized, because islam itself is radical, so "radicalized muslim" is a pleonasm of sorts. This is a flawed argument because it can not explain why some Muslims commit to violent action while others do not (reminder, there are hundreds of millions of muslims). For any productive discussion on change to take place, one will have to try and find the x here: "follower of islam + x = commits to violence". I do not know what exactly the x is, but I call people where x exists radicalized.

88 points by tim_sw 10y ago

Fascinating, and worrisome. This paragraph jumped out at me because of the numbers involved: "Starting in 2012, 34 people went from Aarhus to Syria. As far as the police know, six were killed and 10 are still over there. Of the 18 who came back home, all showed up in Aarslev and Link's office, as did hundreds of other potential radicals in Aarhus — about 330 in total." If a small town like Aarhus harboured 34 people that joined ISIS and 330 potential radicals in total that does not bode well for the rest of Western Europe. Those numbers, when extrapolated make the problem a lot larger than I thought it was (and I actually thought I was over-estimating). Aarhus has a population of only ~320K, so that's 1:1000.

toyg 10y ago
Scandinavian countries host more refugees per capita than most nations on Earth, so that's probably why numbers look so high. Also, this sort of programs inevitably carry a physiological amount of fraud (problems affording a flat? Pick up the phone and declare yourself ex-jihadi...).
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Sweden, yes, they are very far from the norm in this, but Denmark is actually not that much different (or in fact, lower than) .de, .nl, .fr and quite a few other Western European countries. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_p... "Than most nations on Earth" is probably right though, but it's a bit of a weird metric because Denmark is more affluent than 'most nations on Earth' and also part of Europe, which tends to absorb a relatively large number of refugees when compared to other parts of the world. So it would be better to compare Denmark with the countries surrounding it.
ceejayoz 10y ago
Going to Syria isn't necessarily joining ISIS. There are many rebel groups, some directly fighting against ISIS.
- calibraxis 10y ago
  Good point, I missed that. Among others, there's Rojava (feminist anarchists) vs. ISIS (fascist right-wing militia). Those two almost make Bernie Sanders & Donald Trump look identical.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That's true, but it is a fairly small portion as far as I'm aware.
- johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
  If you assume none of the ~30 that went to Syria joined IS, that leaves ~300 "of other potential radicals in Aarhus". That's an enormous amount of _potential_ harm even with low tech attacks like knives in crowds.
- internaut 10y ago
  I keep hearing this and it does not comfort me much. Remember how the West had a problem with... The Taliban... then Al-Qaeda...... then ISIS.......... then ?? The names are changing but something else remains constant or is getting worse.
  - ameen 10y ago
    One constant factor is strife in the region. Provides a constant source of enraged youngsters seeking revenge after being hard done by an outsider (death in family, unemployment, living under an authoritarian govt, illiteracy, etc). This will continue until weapons need to be sold. Military Industrial complex is a thing and it needs blood to lubricate its wheels.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      There are plenty of other countries which are considerably poorer than the middle east. Circa 2010 Syria wasn't a "bad" place, the average income was greater than that say of India, it was about equal to that of Moldova and the Republic of Macedonia both which are both EU accession candidates. Syrians (and Saudis) who joined the insurgency in Iraq weren't disenfranchised infact they were from the elite, often dropping out of university to go and join the "cause". Osama Bin Laden who founded AQ was born into one of the richest families in the world, had higher education and really had no hard done to him by anyone. Europeans who join ISIS are mostly 2nd and 3rd generation "immigrants", often to mixed families and "fresh converts", they aren't particularly disenfranchised either. Geopolitics and economics do have a role in conflicts everywhere, but the sooner you stop blaming everything on people being poor, oppressed and "western expansionism" the sooner we might actually be able to start working on a solution. Last time I've checked Tibet is effectively poorer than Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the smaller gulf states (and I'm not counting the average which is skewed because of how the wealth is distributed) and it's quite objectively oppressed but I have yet to see Tibetans blowing up restaurants in China.
Animats 10y ago
Aarhus is the second-largest city in Denmark. Copenhagen is only ~562K. But still, that's a lot of people for what most countries consider a small city. "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That may not be a meaningful designation. Only about 1 in 10,000 tried to join ISIS. About 250 Americans have tried to join ISIS, says the FBI. That's about 1 in a million for the US. Around 100 made it to the battle zone. NBC has a profile of 15 of them.[1] [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-uncovered/americans-15-who-left-united-states-join-isis-n573611 http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-uncovered/americans-15...
- digi_owl 10y ago
  > "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That oversimplifies a bit. You do not simply walk in a well adjusted individual and walk out a radical. If you check the background of all the people mentioned, i bet you that you will find history involving social services, trouble at school, possibly a rap sheet. Again and again, no matter if a person is muslim, christian, or something else entirely, the common denominator is that they feel themselves not fitting in with the society around them.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar. Having a different skin color, being ostracized by society for whatever reason, ignored by the girls the media suggest they should be interested in, it's not easy being a young male in any society. We used to have military service but that path is not without problems of its own.
    - jomamaxx 10y ago
      "Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar." They are related but it would be wrong to equate them. One is an ideological movement with leaders, propaganda, formalized groups, $$$$, ethnic orientation and nationalism etc.. It would be like saying the Nazis were just a bunch of angry men. Obviously, they were that, but it wasn't the primary driver. ISIS, radical Salafism/Wahhabism etc. are organized forces.
internaut 10y ago
What is your solution to this? Not being sarcastic downvoter! I really want to know.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  You're not going to like it, and it's not much of a solution anyway. Time. Many generations and quite possibly civil war or outright war between nation states. Humanity does not have a very good track record when it comes to learning from the past, so we are set to repeat history a couple of more times before we get it right. Let's hope I'm wrong about this, but the rate at which all the stable parts of the world are de-stabilizing is uncanny. People keep pointing to studies that prove that the world is becoming less violent but I'm reminded of the sailors proverb that a real storm is preceded by a sense of calm.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    A interesting proverb, as it fits economics just as well as meteorology.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      Are you being sarcastic? I've never heard that it applies to demographic movements.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    No offense, but you are discounting studies for what sounds like your intuition, which I'd argue is the entire point about science, to better inform us against our biases. I'll take what science says over what the media hype is any day.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      You're more than welcome to. But there is a ton of evidence that the foundations of many societies are shifting and not for the better. That doesn't immediately reflect in the statistics (death tolls, crime rates) until a certain critical mass has been reached. Just like you can't tell a tsunami from a small wave visually until it reaches the shore. There isn't a country in Europe that has not moved substantially towards nationalism in the last decade or so. The foundations of Europe are being attacked and countries that were relatively stable (Turkey, Greece, Spain, UK) are all facing internal forces strong enough to change those countries in substantial ways. Then there is Ukraine (which is far from over) and Syria. All in all, 'science' is in this case mostly tallying up the dead a couple of years after the bodies hit the ground. It's lagging behind the curve considerably and it doesn't even log places like Iraq and Syria in those statistics because they are anomalies.

cyberferret 10y ago

A fascinating story, and a great initiative by the town police. The world needs more role models for non aggressive activism - we lack a Ghandi or MLK of our generation...

mtgx 10y ago
You mean someone that would argue against economic injustice, racism, violence, and had a decades old track record of doing so? (even to the point of marching with MLK himself) Yes, if only our generation had someone like that running for president in the US.
- douche 10y ago
  Instead, we have people like that selling out to corrupt career politicians who can't say two sentences without lying through their teeth.
  - calibraxis 10y ago
    I get the impression that Jeremy Corbyn (in the UK) is much better than Bernie Sanders at helping build grassroots organizations that hopefully persist without him. I heard Bernie Sanders compared with Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition, whose energy & commitment faded away after Jackson wasn't elected. Same with Ralph Nader, apparently.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      It is a little too early to discount Sanders. Just because the media buzz around him isn't as strong doesn't mean many still don't respect him and he doesn't have influence amongst his supporters before he endorsed Clinton.
    - saboot 10y ago
      It is a bit early to count him out, he has made an announcement regarding setting up persistent organizations to support progressive down ballot candidates (dem or not). Hopefully it turns into something meaningful.

Mz 10y ago

Hearing a policeman take responsibility for his life getting derailed really moved Jamal. He agreed to come into Link's office. They are doing good work. This all fits with everything I have ever read about how to undermine extremism, radicalization, etc. Time does not tend to heal such wounds. It tends to make them fester. That doesn't mean they cannot be healed.

noobermin 10y ago
Unfortunately, this section is becoming a political thread while I feel like there is more to be said about psychology here. It feels unnatural especially to accept someone back when they've essentially fought against you. At worse, one would wonder if you embolden criminals when you do this. I think it comes down to motivation. If a criminal is say like a sadist rapist, giving him a hug after he rapes will just embolden him to commit more crime. That's because his motivations are due to internal forces/perversions. However, if someone is motivated like Jamal due to discrimination, the thing he wanted in the first place was acceptance, so accepting him leaves him with no reason to commit crime. Unfortunately, you can't read inside someone's head. Some people just want to be a Jihadist. Some want to see blood and kill. Some just want to belong. I think the best thing to do is to do both...help those who want to be helped and reach those who could be reached, and fight vehemently those who simply want glory or want to get their kicks. How do you know when or when not for this or that case? I guess you pay investigators a nice salary to figure that out because blanket policy is only so effective.
- HappyFunGuy 10y ago
  We can read inside peoples heads. We call it listening. What people want is to feel important, some rape, some jihad, and some virtue signal. The overhead of even needing to measure or guess their real intention or state exceeds their lifetime value to the culture in comparison to the best viable alternative immigrant. You're cash negative even bothering to measure their riskiness.
- Mz 10y ago
  This is something that can be studied. Social psychology. Negotiation and conflict resolution. Etc. I have had such classes. First, he reached out to him with his own agenda. Naturally, having been crapped on by so many people, the young man was suspicious. So, he apologized specifically for the role his own department had played in the ongoing tragedy of this guy's life. He did not just say "Sorry your life sucks." He distanced himself from the wrongdoing of the officers the guy had previously interacted with, showed that his agenda was not harmful, it was a good faith agenda. Then he hooked him up with a role model who could provide social proof that there was real hope that this could be resolved. He gave him a model for how to solve. He gave him an attractive alternative to becoming a terrorist. The young man did not previously have an attractive alternative. The article seriously simplified the process. Since this unit is successful in what it does, presumably they are more informed about the various pieces of this than whoever wrote the article. The forgive and forget model does not work. But this kid was turning bad largely due to bad things happening to him. He was mistreated by the police the first time. His pissed off remark at school should have never turned into so much trouble for him. To some extent, his second contact with the police redressed this wrong. The apology was not just empty words.

noobermin 10y ago

It seems like no one realizes that this is a audiocast. Yes it's an hour, but listening to NPR is the thing to do on Sundays!

HappyFunGuy 10y ago

This is a story about Somali Jamal in Denmark, who planned to join ISIS with his friends. But a cop called him, and apologized for uh.., thinking he might be a threat. So Jamal uh, changes his mind, but two of his buddies don't and die in Syria. So if you hug a terrorist, he might not want to kill you as much, maybe. You know who doesn't have this terrorist hugging problem? Japan.

crishoj 10y ago
Could you describe Japan's approach in greater detail?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- oldboyFX 10y ago
  Japanese society is one of the most ethnically, linguistically and culturally homogeneous societies in the world, composed of 98.5% ethnic Japanese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
- d0mine 10y ago
  Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
oldboyFX 10y ago
It's because they're racist. Do you want to be racist like Japan or get BTFO'd? That's what I thought! edit: It's a (bad) joke.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "It's because they're racist. " Funny, Japan doesn't have a terrorism problem.
  - cup 10y ago

HappyFunGuy 10y ago

"How a Danish Town Helped 34 people who weren't Jamal join ISIS."

HappyFunGuy 10y ago

Hey anyone know if muslim population correlate with terror attacks, and if so, is it causative?

jomamaxx 10y ago
You're probably downvoted because of the difficulty some people have when the facts might possibly contradict their ideological motivations. It's a problem across the political spectrum. Nobody wants to know the truth. They want to push their narrative.
- noobermin 10y ago
  It probably is a part of it but it's most likely because such heavily sarcastic comments that do not add to the discussion are usually down-voted, regardless of whether they should be taken seriously or not. Such is the standard on HN. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume since they are a newer user they don't know this.
  - HappyFunGuy 10y ago
    Hey appeal to tone guys, real stats? I for real do not have them.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    Well I don't think it's a sarcastic comment, and it's a perfectly valid inquisition.
- oldboyFX 10y ago
  You're probably one of those racists like that Sam Harris guy! In all seriousness this kind of thing should be discussed more openly. I'm afraid that political correctness leads to nothing more than repressed bigotry. Better than open bigotry but less better than actually trying to solve the problem.
ameen 10y ago
When you say Muslim you're ignoring other important factors as well. All attackers in France were petty criminals who had prior convictions and poor human beings with a history of spousal abuse, alcoholism, etc.[1] They most likely were at the bottom of the economic strata weren't educated beyond school or had well paying jobs or opportunities. Seems more likely to be an issue of disillusioned youth making poor choices that hurt themselves and others. As a counterpoint to your supposed claim. Muslims do exist in large numbers in Singapore, yet they are allowed to work and are given equal opportunity and do contribute economically to the nation. [1] - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691895/He-drank-alcohol-ate-pork-took-drugs-NOT-Muslim-Truck-terrorist-Mohamed-Lahouaiej-Bouhlel-s-cousin-reveals-unlikely-jihadist-beat-wife-NEVER-went-mosque.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691895/He-drank-alc...

Kenji 10y ago

I love how it's always others being evil and 'discriminate' against the muslims that then become terrorists. Like, 'Those evil, evil westerners rejected him and did not appreciate his culture. That was the catalyst for him wanting to become a terrorist.' Imagine this: You go to a foreign country or are raised in a foreign culture (because things in your own country are horrible at the moment). You feel mistreated (even though they provide you with asylum and quite literally save your life and provide you with all you need), for example in a job or at school. This makes you feel like you have to kill people to make your point, and you have to be a terrorist, so you set out to wage this war. This is utter lunacy. This is not the spark for terrorism - a careless upbringing without proper values and with extremist ideologies is. Let me tell you something: Culture matters. A lot. Not race and not birthplace. But what you believe to be moral and true fundamentally shapes not only how you view the world but how you interact with it. What we need is moral education, a reform (enlightenment) in muslim culture and stop being apologist by blaming ourselves.

cyberferret 10y ago
Let me guess - you've never been in a large group situation where you are seemingly accepted, but nearly everyone looks down upon you and treats you with constant suspicion and questions your motives and reminds you on a regular basis that you are different, and that you are lucky to be part of the group. Have you?
- HappyFunGuy 10y ago
  Since you were obtuse in describing the "large groups situation" are you talking about fat kids? or fat adults? or nerds? Did you steal my cake? Or are you trying to talk about race? Or age? Dude, wtf are you talking about? Are you talking about being a minority? English. Speak it.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    ALL the scenarios you mentioned above apply. The fact that you cannot seem to grasp that probably indicates that you are outside all of those groups, and have never experienced what I stated (in plain English) in my original post. Let me give you an example from my own experience - I am of sub-continental heritage, and my family migrated to Australia over 3 decades ago. It has been 99.999% a fantastic life and I embrace the great life and great people here. But a few years back there were a few high profile cases of young Indian men brutally raping women in India, and other places. The mass media latched onto this and immediately went into portraying any man of Indian descent as being a brutal rapist in waiting. I felt that societal change. Almost overnight, I noticed people move away from me when I entered a store. There was a measured difference in the hostility I experienced when talking to people I didn't know. Young women would cross the street when they saw me approach, and cross back after I had passed. Observing these changes DID cause a rage to boil up inside me. How could someone who didn't even know me as a person judge me by the actions of others. I had done everything I could to integrate and embrace this new world, but for the first time ever, I felt unwanted and that my presence was causing discomfort for those around me. It never got to the extent of projecting that hurt and anger at anyone else, nor would I, because that is not in my nature. Thankfully the media lost interest in that narrative fairly quickly, and people now treat me in an open friendly way as before. But if those negative perceptions were perpetually front and centre in the media, and I had to bear the brunt of it for an extended period then I really don't know how my ultimate reaction would have manifested itself.

HappyFunGuy 10y ago

It's a good thing this thread stuck with ISIS and terrorism in general, and not rape stats by hewho'snamecan'tbespoken, in the nordics, because that would really derail the topic, which is I guess quelling local extremism in youth by uh, what would you call this strategy? Hmm. Submission and apology?

juvinious 10y ago

I'm astounded at the lauded idea that these guys are radicalized or it is some unfortunate circumstance of Western (white) oppression. In all its wonderful building of the multicultural fabric, the west continues to paint with the wide stroke that all cultures are great and morally equivalent. Thus, when there is an attack from these 'poor disenfranchised' individuals upon our freedoms and people, the west is quick to attack everything but the true problem, which is Islam. I mean all we have to do is look at Mohammed to understand what it means to be a truly honest, moral and exemplary Muslim. ------ 9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ------

frankquist 10y ago
Why must it be either/or? One can critique (certain tenets of) Islamic thought, yet recognize that there's an interaction between the narrative an individual has about their life (i.e. I'm being disenfranchised) that interacts with their cultural/religious background, making them more prone to certain interpretations of their faith and more committed to these interpretations and their behavioral consequences. You can empathize with an individual that feels like an outcast while not necessarily making a positive moral judgment of their religion or their subjective interpretation of their own predicament. Without "appeasing them" (whatever that means). Nobody in the article you are replying to has made any argument about moral equivalence. To me, they seem to be mostly pragmatic and interested in preventing crime, and the article makes it seemingly effective. Generally I experience that wanting the world to be a certain way does not necessarily make it so. The act of judging Islam, does not necessarily transform it, or its followers. To sway people, you have to understand how they are swayed. I do not discount that some might be swayed by criticism, threat or use of force (i.e. dealing with potential extremists), but these are not necessarily the actions that have the best outcome. I think the "Aarhus model" is interesting in so far as that the officers involved seem to be pragmatical: hey, if we do this, then, in our experience and according to this science, we might very well achieve this certain desired outcome. So let's debate if that is true - instead of getting into this tiresome debate about how people need to be more negative about islam, which in no way I can ascertain contributes to change. I do not believe in the "debate model of change": that people change when they "lose" a debate, and therefore we must all be voracious in our judgment of those people. The model seems to say: if only the entire western world voiced, in harmonic unison, this grand thesis that Islam itself is the problem, by sheer force of this combined act of judgment, the Islamic world would think "dude, I really think these people are on to something. They are right" and cast off their shackles and their cultural heritage. In fact, I find the model frightening because it says: "unless you join me in disparaging another people's culture, you are part of the problem". Which makes it impossible to have a debate on how to engage with people, because somehow engaging with them is seen as appeasement or agreeing with them (I can empathize with someone I do not agree with). Which limits the options we have in pragmatically working on changing our world: by engaging those people that are problematic, trying to find out why they think a certain way, and intervene in a way that maximises effect. "In order to be involved in, or be a guide to, the transforming of the present into the future state - the essence of our work - one must have the skill to do this in such a way that the object with which one is working is not violated, but is transformed according its own laws" - Kaplan EDITED to add: If I interpret you correctly, your argument is that these youngsters are not radicalized, because islam itself is radical, so "radicalized muslim" is a pleonasm of sorts. This is a flawed argument because it can not explain why some Muslims commit to violent action while others do not (reminder, there are hundreds of millions of muslims). For any productive discussion on change to take place, one will have to try and find the x here: "follower of islam + x = commits to violence". I do not know what exactly the x is, but I call people where x exists radicalized.