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I had citizenship of one most repressive and poor countries in the world - Uzbekistan. Later I obtained Russian citizenship. Now, I'm living in the Netherlands

I had citizenship of one most repressive and poor countries in the world - Uzbekistan. Later I obtained Russian citizenship. Now, I'm living in the Netherlands and plan to obtain citizenship of some first world country (NL, SG etc). So I have first hand experience to live with Uzbek passport and being practically completely isolated from the first world (nobody give you EU tourist visa if you have Uzbek passport and you are not "special" person). Now, I have Russian passport, it's a bit easier but I'm still struggling to get even tourist US visa (I was refused twice). Changing passport is very long and painful process. It can significantly change your course of life (like in my case).

tuna-piano 10y ago
I've often thought of the dollar value of my US passport (/citizenship). It would definitely be my most valuable asset (then again, taxes are by far my biggest expense). Besides almost unrestricted travel - my income is far higher in the US than it would be in any other country I've looked at. It's easy to forget how lucky those of us in the developed world are and how so many try so hard to gain status here. Good luck on your journey, and I hope someday you're able to get the US tourist visa to experience the joys of the US: Yosemite, NYC, Disney World and Taco Bell.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  > It's easy to forget how lucky those of us in the developed world are and how so many try so hard to gain status here. I like complaining about insignificant things for that specific reason.
  - villedespommes 10y ago
    Your passport is another first world problem. "There are so many visa-free countries I can visit! How do I pick one to go to for my next vacation?"
- rwmj 10y ago
  This is why I think the European Union should be more like an actual union. You should be able to subscribe to it, and your membership would grant you a passport, rights and duties. It would solve the whole Brexit issue, because everyone who wanted to remain a member could do so. It wouldn't even be that expensive - we pay about £185/year each at the moment to be in the EU (£13bn/70m people). Edit: Obviously this is not a fully worked out idea. What I find disappointing is that no one in the news ever even talks about alternatives, even narrow alternatives.
  - akie 10y ago
    I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Membership of the EU (or at least the common market) needs common laws to work, and these only work at the national level, not at the personal level...
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    I've seen you post this at least five times now. Next time you're on your comments page to copy it again, read what people said about it all of the other times you posted it.
    - rwmj 10y ago
      I have never posted this comment before. You can look through my comments history to verify this easily.
      - microcolonel 10y ago
        Oh god, I'm going senile, or perhaps it's deja vu. I'm sorry. :-\
  - mdasen 10y ago
    There are a few issues with this idea. First, you say that it wouldn't be that expensive at £185/year, but that's the price when you're also offering rights to others in the Union to live and work in your country and giving access to your market to the rest of the Union's goods. The £185/year would barely scratch the surface. Second, who would the cash come from and go to? Presumably, it would be from individual Britons. Would it go to the rest of Europe? £185/year would be very cheap to gain access to the right to live and work in Europe. In fact, countries do sell citizenships, but for a lot more than that. I believe Malta is the easiest way to buy yourself EU citizenship and requires a gift of €650,000 to the government, €150,000 parked in government bonds for 5 years (probably earning next to nothing), and buying at least €350,000 in property (and holding it for at least 5 years). Third, if you could cheaply buy the right to live and work in the EU, why would any country stay? Let me explain the scenario. If I'm a member country of the EU, I must open my borders to other EU countries, but in exchange those countries are open to me. Why wouldn't I want to simply leave and then let the minority of those in my country that want access to the rest to pay a tiny fee? In fact, if that fee is the same that I'm paying for all my citizens currently, the government could even pay it for those that want it and save loads of money. In this scenario, everyone leaves the Union because it's cheaper to just buy the right for the small few that want it. If only 1% of your population actually wants to exercise that right in a given year, you could cut your cost from £13B to £130M. The issue is that a foreign country isn't going to give you access when your country won't give their citizens access on equal terms. It's not an issue of a small fee. Why should a British person willing to pay £185/year get access to the EU while a French person willing to pay £185/year wouldn't get access to the UK? That's the heart of the Brexit issue and why a small fee has nothing to do with the problem. Europe isn't going to give British people freedom of movement into Europe when the UK won't give Europeans freedom of movement into the UK. Why should they give UK citizens more rights than those of other European nations? The issue is that there aren't a lot of alternatives that are in any way realistic. A realistic solution would mean that UK citizens don't get to live/work in more places than other EU citizens without some form of consideration proportional to the right. £185/year isn't proportional, especially since other EU nations must pay into EU coffers. I'm always interested in alternatives, but most alternatives sound more like, "this would be useful and cheap for me and next I'd like a free, unlimited mobile plan with no strings attached." Of course it would be useful if the EU let you pay a tiny fee for the right to live and work in the rest of the EU. Would the UK also let Europeans pay that fee to live and work in the UK? No? Ah, there's the problem. A realistic solution could be one where a country in the EU allows UK citizens to become citizens of their country provided they renounce all ties to the UK and give up all rights in the UK. That would allow UK citizens to determine which set of rights they wanted to live under - but they'd lose UK rights if they chose the European side. But that's not "I get the best of both worlds." If you want rights in both the UK and Europe, then you need to be willing to offer those rights to EU citizens, not just UK citizens. To be fair, you might be more than willing to offer that if you were part of the remain camp, but that doesn't square with Brexit. Ultimately, the issue is just that Brexit is a rejection of the type of thing you think could be nice. Brexit is a rejection of freedom of movement. Brexit is a rejection of making national citizenship less meaningful. Brexit is a rejection of the idea that you should be able to easily live and work where you want to. Your idea might be cool, but it's the opposite of Brexit. Maybe we should move to a world where we can freely join "nations" or "unions" that square with what we want in life rather than being citizens of where we were born or whom we were born to. But that's the opposite of the sentiment expressed by Brexit which seeks to limit that type of freedom.
- nstj 10y ago
  Warren Buffett describes being born in the USA as having won "the ovarian lottery" which sounds about right, as you've described it. [0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-on-the-ovarian-lottery-2013-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-on-the-ovarian...
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    I know quite a few Australians/Kiwis who are able to obtain their British passports. Honestly I think that's worth way more than a US citizenship. They can work and live in any country in the EU, Australia and New Zealand, without a work visa (well for two more years anyway :-P).
    - girvo 10y ago
      I have dual Australia/New Zealand citizenship, and even that alone is well worth it. Brazil, for example, allows New Zealand passport holders to enter visa-free, but not Australians! https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=nz&p2=au& https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=nz&p2...
      - vacri 10y ago
        There's not really that much difference between AU and NZ, though it is weird to see that PNG requires a visa for AU, given that AU gives PNG a chunk of aid money.
        girvo 10y ago
        You're right, there isn't, at least not in this nicely quantified way. Anecdotally, I've been treated much nicer on my NZ passport than my Australian one, even to the same countries (especially France, which I found curious).
        2skep 10y ago
        Other Kiwis I know have reported receiving great treatment in France. Some have pointed out that they still feel a bit guilty about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
- dingo_bat 10y ago
  > I hope someday you're able to get the US tourist visa to experience the joys of the US: Yosemite, NYC, Disney World and Taco Bell. Just nitpicking but Taco bell has outlets all around the world. You don't need to visit the US for that.
jahnu 10y ago
I can imagine. When I was in Uzbekistan I met a local man who had studied in the UK and he explained to me how hard it was to travel. I was amazed you needed exit visas for your own country. I thought that stuff died long ago (with the exception of North Korea or so).
- chaostheory 10y ago
  Many countries in the Middle East still require exit visas. Dubai (UAE) is one of them
  - omarkassim 10y ago
    Dubai and by the extension doesn't require any sort of exit permit to leave the country unless you're giving up your residency at which time, you go through a pretty painless visa cancellation process. Very free movement given our strong aviation culture and infrastructure.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      Except for the migrant workers, who built said infrastructure and are often compared to slaves. It's not easy for them to leave.
      - charlesdm 10y ago
        That's because their passports are taken from them, no? I had no issues leaving Dubai last time I visited.
  - morgante 10y ago
    No, it's not. For citizens and expats it's ridiculously painless to enter/exit the UAE. Even as an American citizen with Global Entry, it's far easier to go in and out of the UAE than it is to enter/exit the USA. I assume you're referring to the controversial Kafala system which chiefly harms migrant workers. It does not, in fact, require that anyone receive an exit visa. The issue is primarily one of employers confiscating passports, not the government requiring you to obtain an exit visa. Fortunately, even in the four years I lived there the situation improved with more employees getting to hold on to their passports. If you want to talk about repressive policies, you're much better off talking about Saudi Arabia which does require exit permits and has a far worse record on human rights (for both citizens and migrant workers).
nbaksalyar 10y ago
I can relate. I was a citizen of Turkmenistan, which is even more opressive than Uzbekistan. It's one of the most closed countries in the world on par with North Korea (or worse). If you're interested, you can read a good travel report from a Russian blogger (translated into English) [0]. So yeah, I totally agree that citizenship/passport of a free (or relatively free) country can be one of the greatest assets that you can have in your life. [0] http://varlamov.ru/1740845.html http://varlamov.ru/1740845.html
- hal9000xp 10y ago
  Yes, I'm aware of situation in Turkmenistan. I left Uzbekistan when I was 22 years old (i.e. I lived there pretty long time) and heard about Turkmenistan government. Turkmenistan for me is kinda mystery because they have a lot of natural gas and they could become pretty rich and developed country (kinda UAE). But they didn't. They got very weird dictator instead. Yes, I read this blog already. Is it difficult to leave Turkmenistan? Do you have some variant of exit visas? There are very few information about this country on the internet.
  - nbaksalyar 10y ago
    > Do you have some variant of exit visas? Exit visas were cancelled around 2006 or 2007. > Is it difficult to leave Turkmenistan? It depends on your situation. For some people it's not too dificult, for some it's impossible. I've witnessed Canadian/Turkmen dual citizen was denied to leave the country until she cancel her Canadian or Turkmeni citizenship (which takes about 6+ months). If you oppose the government they can arbitrarily prohibit you from leaving the country for an arbitrary length of time (read: until the government is changed). And "opposing the government" can be taken very liberally: it can be even a slight criticizing comment in a social network (those are blocked anyway, though). > I left Uzbekistan when I was 22 years old We have a lot in common. ;) I left at the same age and I regret I didn't do it earlier.
djsumdog 10y ago
The Netherlands doesn't allow for dual citizenship, so you'll have to give up one of your other two :(. But if you're an NL resident, there are plenty of other EU nations that do allow multi-citizenship. Also, there are not "first world" or "third world" countries. Those terms are throwbacks to an era where everything was separated out by communists vs capitalist states. The correct terms today are high income, mid-income and low-income/peripheral nations.
- verst 10y ago
  Germany doesn't allow dual citizenship either, unless you acquire dual citizenship at birth (perhaps you were born in the US but your mother is German). In all other cases one either loses their German citizenship (or surrenders their foreign citizenship) immediately upon acquiring the other citizenship. If you are under 18, you get to wait until you turn 18 to make your choice (in some cases until 23). After some research it turns out that Germany allows people to acquire a foreign citizenship without losing their German citizenship in special circumstances. You need their explicit permission before beginning the citizenship process of another country. The application is free form. I just went through this a few months ago and Germany approved my request with no issues. Soon I'll be a German and US citizen.
  - germanier 10y ago
    The idea behind this application is basically to show strong ties to Germany (often including significant savings or investments) and that you are not just keeping the citizenship for the safety net. Additionally to what you said, you can stay German citizen without any approval if you acquire an EU or Swiss citizenship.
- vacri 10y ago
  I once travelled with a woman who had NL, UK, and US passports. She sounded British, identified as Dutch, and travelled on the US passport (she showed me all three). She travelled on the US passport because if you get into trouble, the US will tend to do the "no citizen left behind! rawr!" thing, whereas UK/NL will do the "well, you were pretty fucking stupid to get into that situation, then" thing... (her position, in my words :) )
zeronone 10y ago
I cant agree anymore. I posses literally the worst passport in the world: Afghanistan. Not only you are required to have a Visa basically for every country, getting a visa is also near impossible. And having a visa doesnt mean you wont get lengthy checkups and fishy looks at the airports :( Citizenship is discrimination.

tuna-piano 10y ago

I've often thought of the dollar value of my US passport (/citizenship). It would definitely be my most valuable asset (then again, taxes are by far my biggest expense). Besides almost unrestricted travel - my income is far higher in the US than it would be in any other country I've looked at. It's easy to forget how lucky those of us in the developed world are and how so many try so hard to gain status here. Good luck on your journey, and I hope someday you're able to get the US tourist visa to experience the joys of the US: Yosemite, NYC, Disney World and Taco Bell.

cloudjacker 10y ago
> It's easy to forget how lucky those of us in the developed world are and how so many try so hard to gain status here. I like complaining about insignificant things for that specific reason.
- villedespommes 10y ago
  Your passport is another first world problem. "There are so many visa-free countries I can visit! How do I pick one to go to for my next vacation?"
rwmj 10y ago
This is why I think the European Union should be more like an actual union. You should be able to subscribe to it, and your membership would grant you a passport, rights and duties. It would solve the whole Brexit issue, because everyone who wanted to remain a member could do so. It wouldn't even be that expensive - we pay about £185/year each at the moment to be in the EU (£13bn/70m people). Edit: Obviously this is not a fully worked out idea. What I find disappointing is that no one in the news ever even talks about alternatives, even narrow alternatives.
- akie 10y ago
  I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Membership of the EU (or at least the common market) needs common laws to work, and these only work at the national level, not at the personal level...
- microcolonel 10y ago
  I've seen you post this at least five times now. Next time you're on your comments page to copy it again, read what people said about it all of the other times you posted it.
  - rwmj 10y ago
    I have never posted this comment before. You can look through my comments history to verify this easily.
    - microcolonel 10y ago
      Oh god, I'm going senile, or perhaps it's deja vu. I'm sorry. :-\
- mdasen 10y ago
  There are a few issues with this idea. First, you say that it wouldn't be that expensive at £185/year, but that's the price when you're also offering rights to others in the Union to live and work in your country and giving access to your market to the rest of the Union's goods. The £185/year would barely scratch the surface. Second, who would the cash come from and go to? Presumably, it would be from individual Britons. Would it go to the rest of Europe? £185/year would be very cheap to gain access to the right to live and work in Europe. In fact, countries do sell citizenships, but for a lot more than that. I believe Malta is the easiest way to buy yourself EU citizenship and requires a gift of €650,000 to the government, €150,000 parked in government bonds for 5 years (probably earning next to nothing), and buying at least €350,000 in property (and holding it for at least 5 years). Third, if you could cheaply buy the right to live and work in the EU, why would any country stay? Let me explain the scenario. If I'm a member country of the EU, I must open my borders to other EU countries, but in exchange those countries are open to me. Why wouldn't I want to simply leave and then let the minority of those in my country that want access to the rest to pay a tiny fee? In fact, if that fee is the same that I'm paying for all my citizens currently, the government could even pay it for those that want it and save loads of money. In this scenario, everyone leaves the Union because it's cheaper to just buy the right for the small few that want it. If only 1% of your population actually wants to exercise that right in a given year, you could cut your cost from £13B to £130M. The issue is that a foreign country isn't going to give you access when your country won't give their citizens access on equal terms. It's not an issue of a small fee. Why should a British person willing to pay £185/year get access to the EU while a French person willing to pay £185/year wouldn't get access to the UK? That's the heart of the Brexit issue and why a small fee has nothing to do with the problem. Europe isn't going to give British people freedom of movement into Europe when the UK won't give Europeans freedom of movement into the UK. Why should they give UK citizens more rights than those of other European nations? The issue is that there aren't a lot of alternatives that are in any way realistic. A realistic solution would mean that UK citizens don't get to live/work in more places than other EU citizens without some form of consideration proportional to the right. £185/year isn't proportional, especially since other EU nations must pay into EU coffers. I'm always interested in alternatives, but most alternatives sound more like, "this would be useful and cheap for me and next I'd like a free, unlimited mobile plan with no strings attached." Of course it would be useful if the EU let you pay a tiny fee for the right to live and work in the rest of the EU. Would the UK also let Europeans pay that fee to live and work in the UK? No? Ah, there's the problem. A realistic solution could be one where a country in the EU allows UK citizens to become citizens of their country provided they renounce all ties to the UK and give up all rights in the UK. That would allow UK citizens to determine which set of rights they wanted to live under - but they'd lose UK rights if they chose the European side. But that's not "I get the best of both worlds." If you want rights in both the UK and Europe, then you need to be willing to offer those rights to EU citizens, not just UK citizens. To be fair, you might be more than willing to offer that if you were part of the remain camp, but that doesn't square with Brexit. Ultimately, the issue is just that Brexit is a rejection of the type of thing you think could be nice. Brexit is a rejection of freedom of movement. Brexit is a rejection of making national citizenship less meaningful. Brexit is a rejection of the idea that you should be able to easily live and work where you want to. Your idea might be cool, but it's the opposite of Brexit. Maybe we should move to a world where we can freely join "nations" or "unions" that square with what we want in life rather than being citizens of where we were born or whom we were born to. But that's the opposite of the sentiment expressed by Brexit which seeks to limit that type of freedom.
nstj 10y ago
Warren Buffett describes being born in the USA as having won "the ovarian lottery" which sounds about right, as you've described it. [0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-on-the-ovarian-lottery-2013-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-on-the-ovarian...
- djsumdog 10y ago
  I know quite a few Australians/Kiwis who are able to obtain their British passports. Honestly I think that's worth way more than a US citizenship. They can work and live in any country in the EU, Australia and New Zealand, without a work visa (well for two more years anyway :-P).
  - girvo 10y ago
    I have dual Australia/New Zealand citizenship, and even that alone is well worth it. Brazil, for example, allows New Zealand passport holders to enter visa-free, but not Australians! https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=nz&p2=au& https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=nz&p2...
    - vacri 10y ago
      There's not really that much difference between AU and NZ, though it is weird to see that PNG requires a visa for AU, given that AU gives PNG a chunk of aid money.
      - girvo 10y ago
        You're right, there isn't, at least not in this nicely quantified way. Anecdotally, I've been treated much nicer on my NZ passport than my Australian one, even to the same countries (especially France, which I found curious).
        2skep 10y ago
        Other Kiwis I know have reported receiving great treatment in France. Some have pointed out that they still feel a bit guilty about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
dingo_bat 10y ago
> I hope someday you're able to get the US tourist visa to experience the joys of the US: Yosemite, NYC, Disney World and Taco Bell. Just nitpicking but Taco bell has outlets all around the world. You don't need to visit the US for that.

jahnu 10y ago

I can imagine. When I was in Uzbekistan I met a local man who had studied in the UK and he explained to me how hard it was to travel. I was amazed you needed exit visas for your own country. I thought that stuff died long ago (with the exception of North Korea or so).

chaostheory 10y ago
Many countries in the Middle East still require exit visas. Dubai (UAE) is one of them
- omarkassim 10y ago
  Dubai and by the extension doesn't require any sort of exit permit to leave the country unless you're giving up your residency at which time, you go through a pretty painless visa cancellation process. Very free movement given our strong aviation culture and infrastructure.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Except for the migrant workers, who built said infrastructure and are often compared to slaves. It's not easy for them to leave.
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      That's because their passports are taken from them, no? I had no issues leaving Dubai last time I visited.
- morgante 10y ago
  No, it's not. For citizens and expats it's ridiculously painless to enter/exit the UAE. Even as an American citizen with Global Entry, it's far easier to go in and out of the UAE than it is to enter/exit the USA. I assume you're referring to the controversial Kafala system which chiefly harms migrant workers. It does not, in fact, require that anyone receive an exit visa. The issue is primarily one of employers confiscating passports, not the government requiring you to obtain an exit visa. Fortunately, even in the four years I lived there the situation improved with more employees getting to hold on to their passports. If you want to talk about repressive policies, you're much better off talking about Saudi Arabia which does require exit permits and has a far worse record on human rights (for both citizens and migrant workers).

nbaksalyar 10y ago

I can relate. I was a citizen of Turkmenistan, which is even more opressive than Uzbekistan. It's one of the most closed countries in the world on par with North Korea (or worse). If you're interested, you can read a good travel report from a Russian blogger (translated into English) [0]. So yeah, I totally agree that citizenship/passport of a free (or relatively free) country can be one of the greatest assets that you can have in your life. [0] http://varlamov.ru/1740845.html http://varlamov.ru/1740845.html

hal9000xp 10y ago
Yes, I'm aware of situation in Turkmenistan. I left Uzbekistan when I was 22 years old (i.e. I lived there pretty long time) and heard about Turkmenistan government. Turkmenistan for me is kinda mystery because they have a lot of natural gas and they could become pretty rich and developed country (kinda UAE). But they didn't. They got very weird dictator instead. Yes, I read this blog already. Is it difficult to leave Turkmenistan? Do you have some variant of exit visas? There are very few information about this country on the internet.
- nbaksalyar 10y ago
  > Do you have some variant of exit visas? Exit visas were cancelled around 2006 or 2007. > Is it difficult to leave Turkmenistan? It depends on your situation. For some people it's not too dificult, for some it's impossible. I've witnessed Canadian/Turkmen dual citizen was denied to leave the country until she cancel her Canadian or Turkmeni citizenship (which takes about 6+ months). If you oppose the government they can arbitrarily prohibit you from leaving the country for an arbitrary length of time (read: until the government is changed). And "opposing the government" can be taken very liberally: it can be even a slight criticizing comment in a social network (those are blocked anyway, though). > I left Uzbekistan when I was 22 years old We have a lot in common. ;) I left at the same age and I regret I didn't do it earlier.

djsumdog 10y ago

The Netherlands doesn't allow for dual citizenship, so you'll have to give up one of your other two :(. But if you're an NL resident, there are plenty of other EU nations that do allow multi-citizenship. Also, there are not "first world" or "third world" countries. Those terms are throwbacks to an era where everything was separated out by communists vs capitalist states. The correct terms today are high income, mid-income and low-income/peripheral nations.

verst 10y ago
Germany doesn't allow dual citizenship either, unless you acquire dual citizenship at birth (perhaps you were born in the US but your mother is German). In all other cases one either loses their German citizenship (or surrenders their foreign citizenship) immediately upon acquiring the other citizenship. If you are under 18, you get to wait until you turn 18 to make your choice (in some cases until 23). After some research it turns out that Germany allows people to acquire a foreign citizenship without losing their German citizenship in special circumstances. You need their explicit permission before beginning the citizenship process of another country. The application is free form. I just went through this a few months ago and Germany approved my request with no issues. Soon I'll be a German and US citizen.
- germanier 10y ago
  The idea behind this application is basically to show strong ties to Germany (often including significant savings or investments) and that you are not just keeping the citizenship for the safety net. Additionally to what you said, you can stay German citizen without any approval if you acquire an EU or Swiss citizenship.
vacri 10y ago
I once travelled with a woman who had NL, UK, and US passports. She sounded British, identified as Dutch, and travelled on the US passport (she showed me all three). She travelled on the US passport because if you get into trouble, the US will tend to do the "no citizen left behind! rawr!" thing, whereas UK/NL will do the "well, you were pretty fucking stupid to get into that situation, then" thing... (her position, in my words :) )

zeronone 10y ago

I cant agree anymore. I posses literally the worst passport in the world: Afghanistan. Not only you are required to have a Visa basically for every country, getting a visa is also near impossible. And having a visa doesnt mean you wont get lengthy checkups and fishy looks at the airports :( Citizenship is discrimination.