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It depends upon who you trust. Police/government release figures and press releases. However, one of the problems with the official statements is that terrorism

It depends upon who you trust. Police/government release figures and press releases. However, one of the problems with the official statements is that terrorism trials in the UK can be (and are) held in closed courts in which evidence is withheld. Therefore the public cannot know if what they are being told is accurate+. + I don't actually think that we are being lied to (at the moment) but with closed trials we can't know that for sure.

sevenless 10y ago
I agree it's unlikely they are outright lying but it is possible some of those terrorist plans were instigated in sting operations. So it's not clear how many of them would have proceeded absent government involvement. This is similar to the US: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-agents-directly-involved-us-terror-plots-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-age...
jahnu 10y ago
Imagine if the Birmingham 6 or Guilford 4 and Maguire 7 were tried and convicted in secret courts.
- cmdkeen 10y ago
  You mean the cases we know about due to the independent judiciary and that have led to massive systemic change? You're not going to find a terror suspect being interviewed by the police without a lawyer present and the whole thing being videoed. The days of false confessions and coercive interrogations are long gone.
  - JupiterMoon 10y ago
    Really? I was under the impression that terror suspects could be held for several weeks without having charges brought against them? I was also under the impression that due process is completely ignored in some circumstances (e.g. at airports).
cmdkeen 10y ago
Given Erol Incedal, prosecuted in one of the few actual "secret trials", was found not guilty I'd say that suggests a pretty decent basis for believing the system isn't rigged. I'd even go so far as to say that secret trials are likely to be the ones with higher acquittal rates as the further advanced the plot is the less likely the need for secrecy as more conventional evidence can be led by itself. The judiciary and bar are still independent. The Court of Appeal regularly sides against the government on issues relating to terrorism trials - for instance why you can know the name of Erol Incedal. Compared to Roman system on the continent, or the much more politicised US system, I'd definitely contend the UK is one of the fairest judicial systems on the planet to be accused of a serious crime.
- mason55 10y ago
  Can you tell me about some of the differences in the Continental system? As an American is love to learn the nuances

sevenless 10y ago

I agree it's unlikely they are outright lying but it is possible some of those terrorist plans were instigated in sting operations. So it's not clear how many of them would have proceeded absent government involvement. This is similar to the US: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-agents-directly-involved-us-terror-plots-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-age...

jahnu 10y ago

Imagine if the Birmingham 6 or Guilford 4 and Maguire 7 were tried and convicted in secret courts.

cmdkeen 10y ago
You mean the cases we know about due to the independent judiciary and that have led to massive systemic change? You're not going to find a terror suspect being interviewed by the police without a lawyer present and the whole thing being videoed. The days of false confessions and coercive interrogations are long gone.
- JupiterMoon 10y ago
  Really? I was under the impression that terror suspects could be held for several weeks without having charges brought against them? I was also under the impression that due process is completely ignored in some circumstances (e.g. at airports).

cmdkeen 10y ago

Given Erol Incedal, prosecuted in one of the few actual "secret trials", was found not guilty I'd say that suggests a pretty decent basis for believing the system isn't rigged. I'd even go so far as to say that secret trials are likely to be the ones with higher acquittal rates as the further advanced the plot is the less likely the need for secrecy as more conventional evidence can be led by itself. The judiciary and bar are still independent. The Court of Appeal regularly sides against the government on issues relating to terrorism trials - for instance why you can know the name of Erol Incedal. Compared to Roman system on the continent, or the much more politicised US system, I'd definitely contend the UK is one of the fairest judicial systems on the planet to be accused of a serious crime.

mason55 10y ago
Can you tell me about some of the differences in the Continental system? As an American is love to learn the nuances