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Yet they voted the same type of guy/party who ru(i)ned syria or libia to power? And enough of that evil western/jew outsiders scapegoats conspiracy theory's to

Yet they voted the same type of guy/party who ru(i)ned syria or libia to power? And enough of that evil western/jew outsiders scapegoats conspiracy theory's to avoid the realization that a whole culture produces failing governments on a regular basis. Those rebels are mainly backed up by local powers- Saudi arabia, Iran and yes turkey. Something in these cultures is unable to keep institutions and democracy alive. And the scapegoats all sound so old, shall i list them? The western media, decadence, capitalism, socialism, christianity, judaism, budhism, sports, TV, music, the internet the list of evildoers is endless. They where all eliminated in experiments, and the evidence is there, that they are not the things holding these societys back. Why not for once, own these mistakes and realize all those creepy crawly's from outside are just fleas biting a already diseased dog. And yes, its everywhere the same symptom, in every country that becomes islamic. And the deflection-method that the social reality produced by a cultural system are not connected to the very system, has gone out of the window too by the way. Here is the question wanting a answer: What in these culturs undermines institutions to work correctly? What destroys the ability of judges to oppose governments? What creates this wish to go back towards a perfect time- and time where the lack of modern medicine would have killed half of those wishing back to these times? What undermines the concept of a human live being sacred? I hate cheering for the military here, but they released turkey back into democracy several times. Islamic dictators did this nowhere. <edited to be less inflamatory.. i really want this discussed>

ohyes 10y ago
Poverty, lack of education, and lack of opportunity would be my trio of undermining traits. It's a lot harder to convince someone with a 9-5 job, a family and a mortgage to overthrow the government. If we think of this as Islamic nationalism, it fits the pattern where things get really bad for common people, and someone rallies them against a perceived other in order to consolidate his own power. Be wary of anyone who wants to blame an out-group for your economic issues, be it Muslims, Mexicans, infidels, Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. (Why I'm afraid of Trump). I think sitting at our cushy desk jobs in the west it is hard to empathize with the real hardship people have been experiencing in that region for a long time. I have no knowledge of the causal direction here, honestly. I think there's an assumption by some vocal pundits that it's Islam -> holy war -> poverty. I don't think that's clear. More likely it's poverty -> malleable population -> some cause promises to make things good again (Like they were in the caliphate, like they were in any fabled past) -> people believe it and fight for it. There's historical precedent for this. (Which of course exacerbates the poverty because of wanton destruction of capital/infrastructure, people not being able to leave home, intelligentsia flight, etc). Eventually you get some version of an autocracy. The type of autocracy is to some extent irrelevant, although theocratic autocracies appear to be disproportionately brutal...
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  Other parts of the world had the same loop and broke out of it. Money exists, and even poverty is not universal to the region. Why is there no middle-eastern- tiger state? Lack of Education is unconvincing, the Internet is now available for 20 years. Education is in parts of the region actively rejected as western influence. Late-Medieval Peasants where poor. Yet, in the citys the Renaissance could happen. There is not even this "aristocratic" attempt for improvement by "showing off" intellectual achievements or art showing in Saudi Arabia. No "big familys" trying to outdo one another with the fame of there universitys. And they could have done so. http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/491501/will-the-middle-east-ever-be-secular/ http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/491501/will-the-middl...
  - safeignorance 10y ago
    Israel is a relatively rich middle-eastern democracy. Jordan should probably count too (it has its problems, yes, but so do most of the tiger states). Qatar too, to a much lesser extent and esp. if you prioritize wealth/stability over democracy per se. And Saudi Arabia is at least stable and wealthy, if not ticking off the other boxes. But it's also worth pointing out that outside of the west and regions where the local population was so thoroughly decimated as to make the population effectively European (e.g., US and Canada), free market secular democracies are pretty rare.
    - Pica_soO 10y ago
      Actually Iran and Turkey would be on my list for close but not yet "Tiger States"- Israel falls under "displaced, but Europe", even in the DVD-Release market. I know some pretty awesome Pakistani programmers- but they all left there home-country to live somewhere else. They had some "doing well" family background though. If poverty eats it all, via corruption, would it help to help founders in these states to hide there (relative) "wealth", and the existence of there company/products? Could IP be protected from illegal seezing of governments, by market pressure? Is that even possible - a stealth startup?
calibraxis 10y ago
Depressing as hearing people in the British Empire wondering why Indians don't like freedom. Ironically, anyone who googles "Rojava" or "north kurdistan democracy" will discover people far ahead of the western powers in terms of democracy. Absolutely fundamental to understanding Turkey. Furthermore, anyone can read things like: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...), or about US support of Saudi Arabia's dictatorship, etc. What's their real problem? Living on top of the oil. Truly basic things, easier than anything in software.
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  I fell for the romantics of the revolutionary underdog early on in my life. By now i know, they will be corrupt and evil if they get to power- they just cant be it - yet. The Kurd's will build another formidable dictatorship once there first state is really officially established, and the outside pressure is gone. There are power hungry psychopaths in every society, and not having plans for institutions that keep those at bay and busy will allow them to gain control. Everyone can be a saint without woman and vine available.

ohyes 10y ago

Poverty, lack of education, and lack of opportunity would be my trio of undermining traits. It's a lot harder to convince someone with a 9-5 job, a family and a mortgage to overthrow the government. If we think of this as Islamic nationalism, it fits the pattern where things get really bad for common people, and someone rallies them against a perceived other in order to consolidate his own power. Be wary of anyone who wants to blame an out-group for your economic issues, be it Muslims, Mexicans, infidels, Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. (Why I'm afraid of Trump). I think sitting at our cushy desk jobs in the west it is hard to empathize with the real hardship people have been experiencing in that region for a long time. I have no knowledge of the causal direction here, honestly. I think there's an assumption by some vocal pundits that it's Islam -> holy war -> poverty. I don't think that's clear. More likely it's poverty -> malleable population -> some cause promises to make things good again (Like they were in the caliphate, like they were in any fabled past) -> people believe it and fight for it. There's historical precedent for this. (Which of course exacerbates the poverty because of wanton destruction of capital/infrastructure, people not being able to leave home, intelligentsia flight, etc). Eventually you get some version of an autocracy. The type of autocracy is to some extent irrelevant, although theocratic autocracies appear to be disproportionately brutal...

Pica_soO 10y ago
Other parts of the world had the same loop and broke out of it. Money exists, and even poverty is not universal to the region. Why is there no middle-eastern- tiger state? Lack of Education is unconvincing, the Internet is now available for 20 years. Education is in parts of the region actively rejected as western influence. Late-Medieval Peasants where poor. Yet, in the citys the Renaissance could happen. There is not even this "aristocratic" attempt for improvement by "showing off" intellectual achievements or art showing in Saudi Arabia. No "big familys" trying to outdo one another with the fame of there universitys. And they could have done so. http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/491501/will-the-middle-east-ever-be-secular/ http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/491501/will-the-middl...
- safeignorance 10y ago
  Israel is a relatively rich middle-eastern democracy. Jordan should probably count too (it has its problems, yes, but so do most of the tiger states). Qatar too, to a much lesser extent and esp. if you prioritize wealth/stability over democracy per se. And Saudi Arabia is at least stable and wealthy, if not ticking off the other boxes. But it's also worth pointing out that outside of the west and regions where the local population was so thoroughly decimated as to make the population effectively European (e.g., US and Canada), free market secular democracies are pretty rare.
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    Actually Iran and Turkey would be on my list for close but not yet "Tiger States"- Israel falls under "displaced, but Europe", even in the DVD-Release market. I know some pretty awesome Pakistani programmers- but they all left there home-country to live somewhere else. They had some "doing well" family background though. If poverty eats it all, via corruption, would it help to help founders in these states to hide there (relative) "wealth", and the existence of there company/products? Could IP be protected from illegal seezing of governments, by market pressure? Is that even possible - a stealth startup?

calibraxis 10y ago

Depressing as hearing people in the British Empire wondering why Indians don't like freedom. Ironically, anyone who googles "Rojava" or "north kurdistan democracy" will discover people far ahead of the western powers in terms of democracy. Absolutely fundamental to understanding Turkey. Furthermore, anyone can read things like: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...), or about US support of Saudi Arabia's dictatorship, etc. What's their real problem? Living on top of the oil. Truly basic things, easier than anything in software.

Pica_soO 10y ago
I fell for the romantics of the revolutionary underdog early on in my life. By now i know, they will be corrupt and evil if they get to power- they just cant be it - yet. The Kurd's will build another formidable dictatorship once there first state is really officially established, and the outside pressure is gone. There are power hungry psychopaths in every society, and not having plans for institutions that keep those at bay and busy will allow them to gain control. Everyone can be a saint without woman and vine available.