4 ms·

as an italian student living on 12€/day which covers rent and bills (6€), food (4€) coffe to study after dinner (0.5€) and unexpected expenses i wonder how thos

by esac 10y ago

as an italian student living on 12€/day which covers rent and bills (6€), food (4€) coffe to study after dinner (0.5€) and unexpected expenses i wonder how those 35€ and for the first time i understand why people are angry at immigration.. (we didn't get scholarships for 2 years because of the lack of money)

paglia_s 10y ago
180€/mo for rent and bills? It seems pretty low for me. I'ma student in Milan and pay 450€/mo only for bill. I know other cities can be much cheaper but bills are almost the same everywhere
- esac 10y ago
  160€/mo rent 15€/mo utilities 5€ other stuff the house is shared with 4 guys, two bedrooms (Turin so yea it's a little cheaper)
internaut 10y ago
Logistically it makes more sense to build shelter-in-place in Africa and the Middle East. They are easier to police and supply. Then the applications for refugee status can be fairly processed. This way people won't be converted into organs, thrown off boats, enslaved or otherwise taken advantage of. It should also serve to distinguish between genuine refugees (for non-permanent visa) from warzones and the holidaymakers/opportunists. The current scenario is the worst possible route. Talk of migrants obtaining work is a shibboleth that discerns whether you have your head screwed on properly. Are we really supposed to believe that millions of migrants are supposed to integrate without understanding the language, law, culture and without the schooling of so much as a secondary school student? It is preposterous. Inexplicably stupid. Even with successful integration it can take up to a 100 years for it to work. Look at how long the Italians and Irish were outsiders in the United States. And they were whites in a country historically unusually open to migration. And they trickled in instead of millions per year. That's the easy route and it is not that easy.
- sanswork 10y ago
  >And they trickled in instead of millions per year. In 1847 New York had a population of ~375,000 and had 52,000 Irish and 53,000 German immigrants in one year. Same year Boston with a population of ~115,000 had almost 40,000 irish immigrants. During that time there was Irish immigration alone equal to about 3% of the US population(650,000 immigrants vs 17m). The current EU situation is equal to about 0.2% of the population(1m vs 500m)
  - internaut 10y ago
    You're comparing apples and arabs. Numbers matter but so does; 1. The type of people you're bringing in. Middle Easterners and Africans are known to be far more violent than Europeans. It is just a fact. Denying it is pointless. This is but one issue among thousands of others, such as not speaking a European language, not being well educated, not grokking western lifestyle and on and on. A portion of the migrants are coming here hate Westerners and want to kill us. Don't ask me to explain their rationale, because they are delusional. How many is unknown but even if it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction it shall be enough to cause social unrest and plausibly violent conflict. Even Merkal admitted this is so. Denying this is pointless. 2. The distribution also matters; Germany has taken 1-2 million people in 2015, with 50% of those being non-Euros. That is not counting the illegals, of which we may be reasonably sure there are a great many. It is not as you say: 1 million vs 500 million. The true figure is much higher. I am very far away from the Mediterranean and yet I have Malawian and Nigerian migrants wandering aimlessly on the streets in a small town in the middle of nowhere, most of which are illegals. 3. The rationale for them to be here matters too. Why are they here? What is in it for us? There has to be a trade of some sort for integration to work. Nobody seems to know beyond vague language involving global trade and anti-racism. I have yet to hear a cogent explanation of why for example, the migrants are processed into our society when they turn up, as opposed to applying with to be processed in a system we have already devised for people in countries and migrant camps to apply through. Remember, we have a power to refuse somebody to come into our country without our say so. That's a huge part of what the word sovereignty means. Back in 1847 men were needed to construct farms and railroads, to develop the new frontier basically. The migrants were mostly white and mostly Christian, going to a nation that was also mostly white and mostly Christian. Integration still took about a hundred years and there were plenty of problems. Sincerely, what is it exactly that the migrants are bringing to our society that we couldn't get by trade? Rocket ship programs like Elon Musk? The development of new technologies? I honestly do not believe it. Recent European history shows Arabs go to live in self made ghettos and nurture hatred and loathing of us, the natives, who actually have a right to live here and were getting on just fine before they arrived. There's plenty of racism in Europe friends, and it is coming to us in the form of articulated lorries driving into crowds and men shooting people for being gay or listening to rock music. Both of those acts are crimes in a certain book. Do you even recall in recent history Europeans murdering dozens or hundreds of Muslims? I don't even recall one. There probably is a few but it's nothing close to the scale of the hate we are seeing directed back at us. Let's talk about that, instead of 'diversity in the workplace' or 'structural racism'. There is nothing abstract about what is happening in Europe at the moment. Huge numbers of people in Europe want to kill Europeans. That's what we should be talking about. This isn't metaphysics.
invaliduser 10y ago
Yep, sure, governements giving so much to refugees, and nothing to you. I can't count how many times I heard this myth. Actually, the money really comes mainly from the European Union, so as a eurocitizen (not italian) I'm actually paying it, not you (with 12€/day you shouldn't pay any income tax). Anyway, and I'm glad we provide for them, 35€ is not that much when one starts their life over from scratch. Also note that the refugees are likely to spend everything in local shops, which in turn pay their tax to the italian governement. All in all, such an operation provides dignity to the refugees, increase the income of local shop owners, whose money they also spend in Italy, and all in all, most of the money goes to the italian governement. It's rarely presented with such a perspective, but providing to the poor actually costs very little.
- esac 10y ago
  I'm not against helping people with tickets and allowances, after all that's the whole point of scholarships isn't it? But I do understand why many Italians are so upset about the amount. I worked for two years (and paid my share of taxes) to finance my studies I don't understand why you assumed I don't pay taxes. >are likely to spend everything in local shops same goes for scholarships, actually more because we don't have families outside the EU

by esac 10y ago

paglia_s 10y ago

180€/mo for rent and bills? It seems pretty low for me. I'ma student in Milan and pay 450€/mo only for bill. I know other cities can be much cheaper but bills are almost the same everywhere

esac 10y ago
160€/mo rent 15€/mo utilities 5€ other stuff the house is shared with 4 guys, two bedrooms (Turin so yea it's a little cheaper)

internaut 10y ago

Logistically it makes more sense to build shelter-in-place in Africa and the Middle East. They are easier to police and supply. Then the applications for refugee status can be fairly processed. This way people won't be converted into organs, thrown off boats, enslaved or otherwise taken advantage of. It should also serve to distinguish between genuine refugees (for non-permanent visa) from warzones and the holidaymakers/opportunists. The current scenario is the worst possible route. Talk of migrants obtaining work is a shibboleth that discerns whether you have your head screwed on properly. Are we really supposed to believe that millions of migrants are supposed to integrate without understanding the language, law, culture and without the schooling of so much as a secondary school student? It is preposterous. Inexplicably stupid. Even with successful integration it can take up to a 100 years for it to work. Look at how long the Italians and Irish were outsiders in the United States. And they were whites in a country historically unusually open to migration. And they trickled in instead of millions per year. That's the easy route and it is not that easy.

sanswork 10y ago
>And they trickled in instead of millions per year. In 1847 New York had a population of ~375,000 and had 52,000 Irish and 53,000 German immigrants in one year. Same year Boston with a population of ~115,000 had almost 40,000 irish immigrants. During that time there was Irish immigration alone equal to about 3% of the US population(650,000 immigrants vs 17m). The current EU situation is equal to about 0.2% of the population(1m vs 500m)
- internaut 10y ago
  You're comparing apples and arabs. Numbers matter but so does; 1. The type of people you're bringing in. Middle Easterners and Africans are known to be far more violent than Europeans. It is just a fact. Denying it is pointless. This is but one issue among thousands of others, such as not speaking a European language, not being well educated, not grokking western lifestyle and on and on. A portion of the migrants are coming here hate Westerners and want to kill us. Don't ask me to explain their rationale, because they are delusional. How many is unknown but even if it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction it shall be enough to cause social unrest and plausibly violent conflict. Even Merkal admitted this is so. Denying this is pointless. 2. The distribution also matters; Germany has taken 1-2 million people in 2015, with 50% of those being non-Euros. That is not counting the illegals, of which we may be reasonably sure there are a great many. It is not as you say: 1 million vs 500 million. The true figure is much higher. I am very far away from the Mediterranean and yet I have Malawian and Nigerian migrants wandering aimlessly on the streets in a small town in the middle of nowhere, most of which are illegals. 3. The rationale for them to be here matters too. Why are they here? What is in it for us? There has to be a trade of some sort for integration to work. Nobody seems to know beyond vague language involving global trade and anti-racism. I have yet to hear a cogent explanation of why for example, the migrants are processed into our society when they turn up, as opposed to applying with to be processed in a system we have already devised for people in countries and migrant camps to apply through. Remember, we have a power to refuse somebody to come into our country without our say so. That's a huge part of what the word sovereignty means. Back in 1847 men were needed to construct farms and railroads, to develop the new frontier basically. The migrants were mostly white and mostly Christian, going to a nation that was also mostly white and mostly Christian. Integration still took about a hundred years and there were plenty of problems. Sincerely, what is it exactly that the migrants are bringing to our society that we couldn't get by trade? Rocket ship programs like Elon Musk? The development of new technologies? I honestly do not believe it. Recent European history shows Arabs go to live in self made ghettos and nurture hatred and loathing of us, the natives, who actually have a right to live here and were getting on just fine before they arrived. There's plenty of racism in Europe friends, and it is coming to us in the form of articulated lorries driving into crowds and men shooting people for being gay or listening to rock music. Both of those acts are crimes in a certain book. Do you even recall in recent history Europeans murdering dozens or hundreds of Muslims? I don't even recall one. There probably is a few but it's nothing close to the scale of the hate we are seeing directed back at us. Let's talk about that, instead of 'diversity in the workplace' or 'structural racism'. There is nothing abstract about what is happening in Europe at the moment. Huge numbers of people in Europe want to kill Europeans. That's what we should be talking about. This isn't metaphysics.

invaliduser 10y ago

Yep, sure, governements giving so much to refugees, and nothing to you. I can't count how many times I heard this myth. Actually, the money really comes mainly from the European Union, so as a eurocitizen (not italian) I'm actually paying it, not you (with 12€/day you shouldn't pay any income tax). Anyway, and I'm glad we provide for them, 35€ is not that much when one starts their life over from scratch. Also note that the refugees are likely to spend everything in local shops, which in turn pay their tax to the italian governement. All in all, such an operation provides dignity to the refugees, increase the income of local shop owners, whose money they also spend in Italy, and all in all, most of the money goes to the italian governement. It's rarely presented with such a perspective, but providing to the poor actually costs very little.

esac 10y ago
I'm not against helping people with tickets and allowances, after all that's the whole point of scholarships isn't it? But I do understand why many Italians are so upset about the amount. I worked for two years (and paid my share of taxes) to finance my studies I don't understand why you assumed I don't pay taxes. >are likely to spend everything in local shops same goes for scholarships, actually more because we don't have families outside the EU