4 ms·

I never thought I'd find myself quoting Tony Benn, but I think his "five questions" are very much on point: "If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, pe

by mrec 10y ago

I never thought I'd find myself quoting Tony Benn, but I think his "five questions" are very much on point: "If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions: what power do you have; where did you get it; in whose interests do you exercise it; to whom are you accountable; and, how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

Brakenshire 10y ago
The head of the Commission is voted in or out ever 4-5 years (previously by representatives of governments, now by the Parliament). The representatives can be removed through national democratic processes, and the Parliament is directly elected. Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done. All round, seems to exceed your criteria.
- mrec 10y ago
  Well, ish. AIUI the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council; the Parliament can veto that nomination but can't propose their own. (Rather like their role in legislation.) Your "Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done." sounds a bit odd in the context of this argument. "It's silly for countries to leave the EU on the grounds that it's not democratic, when it's obviously democratic because countries can leave the EU".
  - tormeh 10y ago
    >the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council Yes, technically correct. What happened last time however was that the EP said "We want Juncker and we'll veto anyone else". There was a long staring contest and the EP eventually won. A veto isn't a technicality that you can approximate away - it's just as important as being able to propose laws. The national leaders generally didn't like this, because they prefer the EU being more like a (huge, weird) deal negotiation table than something with direct representation. The national leaders are ultimately in charge, so this whole episode is mostly an unforeseen consequence of past treaties that they're willing to tolerate.
  - gggggg11111 10y ago
    UK with its house of Lords, no constitution, monarch as head of state, and members of parliament who somehow seem to come from same schools/universities is not exactly the best example of Democracy But hey look at EU over there
    - rayiner 10y ago
      The U.K. Has a constitution, just not a single written document. It's the oldest extant constitutional government: even at the time of the Magna Carta 800 years ago the English were following constitutional principles.
tormeh 10y ago
>how can we get rid of you? Well, you could try voting for national politicians and EP fractions that doesn't like the person in question. It's unlikely to succeed, for much the same reason that voting to get rid of national politicians is unlikely to succeed, but that's more of a tyranny of the majority kind of thing.
- iofj 10y ago
  Really ? There were 5 referenda on the EU's coming into being. The EU lost all but one of them. So it's really more of a tyranny of the minority. Clearly one cannot get rid of the EU by voting against it - as it would be gone already. The referenda: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_r... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_re... 3) Same referendum in Spain (technically also in Luxemburg) 4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_Association_Agreement_referendum,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93European... 5) Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_withdrawal_from... 6 - sort of) The election on blocking EU policy with regards to debt in Greece under Syriza, which the EU clearly lost Needless to say, the EU is not a big fan of elections. You see, the big problem with Brexit, according to the highest EU authorities is that David Cameron allowed the vote in the first place [1]. [1] (for example) http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-results-spurned-europe-wants-the-uk-gone-20160625-gpruzo.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-results-spurned-europe-wa... They have since realized just how stupid this attitude is politically, but clearly they were expecting Cameron to do what all other governments have done when EU lost an election or a vote : ignore the vote, and soldier on regardless. The only thing the EU ever cared about is big business and huge multinationals, a fact that is blatantly obvious from reading articles about the commission. It is not a government of the people, as it rejects the people and is rejected by the people (You should visit even Brussels itself and talk to the locals). And of course it's treatment of Greece showed what the EU will do when people get in trouble. Kick them - hard - when they're down. After your pension retroactively gets downgraded by almost 50%, they'll do that a second time just to improve election prospects for foreign politicians. By all democratic principles, it should be destroyed. That will be a great day for democracy.

by mrec 10y ago

Brakenshire 10y ago

The head of the Commission is voted in or out ever 4-5 years (previously by representatives of governments, now by the Parliament). The representatives can be removed through national democratic processes, and the Parliament is directly elected. Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done. All round, seems to exceed your criteria.

mrec 10y ago
Well, ish. AIUI the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council; the Parliament can veto that nomination but can't propose their own. (Rather like their role in legislation.) Your "Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done." sounds a bit odd in the context of this argument. "It's silly for countries to leave the EU on the grounds that it's not democratic, when it's obviously democratic because countries can leave the EU".
- tormeh 10y ago
  >the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council Yes, technically correct. What happened last time however was that the EP said "We want Juncker and we'll veto anyone else". There was a long staring contest and the EP eventually won. A veto isn't a technicality that you can approximate away - it's just as important as being able to propose laws. The national leaders generally didn't like this, because they prefer the EU being more like a (huge, weird) deal negotiation table than something with direct representation. The national leaders are ultimately in charge, so this whole episode is mostly an unforeseen consequence of past treaties that they're willing to tolerate.
- gggggg11111 10y ago
  UK with its house of Lords, no constitution, monarch as head of state, and members of parliament who somehow seem to come from same schools/universities is not exactly the best example of Democracy But hey look at EU over there
  - rayiner 10y ago
    The U.K. Has a constitution, just not a single written document. It's the oldest extant constitutional government: even at the time of the Magna Carta 800 years ago the English were following constitutional principles.

tormeh 10y ago

>how can we get rid of you? Well, you could try voting for national politicians and EP fractions that doesn't like the person in question. It's unlikely to succeed, for much the same reason that voting to get rid of national politicians is unlikely to succeed, but that's more of a tyranny of the majority kind of thing.

iofj 10y ago
Really ? There were 5 referenda on the EU's coming into being. The EU lost all but one of them. So it's really more of a tyranny of the minority. Clearly one cannot get rid of the EU by voting against it - as it would be gone already. The referenda: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_r... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_re... 3) Same referendum in Spain (technically also in Luxemburg) 4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_Association_Agreement_referendum,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93European... 5) Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_withdrawal_from... 6 - sort of) The election on blocking EU policy with regards to debt in Greece under Syriza, which the EU clearly lost Needless to say, the EU is not a big fan of elections. You see, the big problem with Brexit, according to the highest EU authorities is that David Cameron allowed the vote in the first place [1]. [1] (for example) http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-results-spurned-europe-wants-the-uk-gone-20160625-gpruzo.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-results-spurned-europe-wa... They have since realized just how stupid this attitude is politically, but clearly they were expecting Cameron to do what all other governments have done when EU lost an election or a vote : ignore the vote, and soldier on regardless. The only thing the EU ever cared about is big business and huge multinationals, a fact that is blatantly obvious from reading articles about the commission. It is not a government of the people, as it rejects the people and is rejected by the people (You should visit even Brussels itself and talk to the locals). And of course it's treatment of Greece showed what the EU will do when people get in trouble. Kick them - hard - when they're down. After your pension retroactively gets downgraded by almost 50%, they'll do that a second time just to improve election prospects for foreign politicians. By all democratic principles, it should be destroyed. That will be a great day for democracy.