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> Orwell ends the review by stating that the best defence people have in a capitalist world is the democratic form of government. The EU is part of a "democrat

> Orwell ends the review by stating that the best defence people have in a capitalist world is the democratic form of government. The EU is part of a "democratic form of government": the Parliament is elected directly by its citizens, while the Commission is nominated by the democratically elected governments of its member countries. What we miss is more accountability, which we could get if the Commission was expressed directly by the Parliament, or elected directly by EU citizens.

m_mueller 10y ago
While it's sort of democratic, IMO the EU totally went wrong on separating the powers. The Commission is in many ways a Legislative body [1], without it pretty much nothing happens in EU government. So it's an indirect indirect democracy with screwed up checks and balances. Call that what you want, as a Swiss I don't want anything to do with it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Legislative_initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Legislativ...
- Brakenshire 10y ago
  The head of the Commission is now chosen by the Parliament. Juncker was the EPP candidate.
- danmaz74 10y ago
  I agree that there's too much indirection, and I wish we'll make it more directly representative.
- ProxCoques 10y ago
  And how is that any different from a civil service? Let me guess - you've never seen an episode of "Yes, Minister", have you?
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Civil service has a very specific meaning to me, am obligated to do it as a male Swiss.
mrec 10y ago
I never thought I'd find myself quoting Tony Benn, but I think his "five questions" are very much on point: "If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions: what power do you have; where did you get it; in whose interests do you exercise it; to whom are you accountable; and, how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."
- Brakenshire 10y ago
  The head of the Commission is voted in or out ever 4-5 years (previously by representatives of governments, now by the Parliament). The representatives can be removed through national democratic processes, and the Parliament is directly elected. Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done. All round, seems to exceed your criteria.
  - mrec 10y ago
    Well, ish. AIUI the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council; the Parliament can veto that nomination but can't propose their own. (Rather like their role in legislation.) Your "Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done." sounds a bit odd in the context of this argument. "It's silly for countries to leave the EU on the grounds that it's not democratic, when it's obviously democratic because countries can leave the EU".
    - tormeh 10y ago
      >the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council Yes, technically correct. What happened last time however was that the EP said "We want Juncker and we'll veto anyone else". There was a long staring contest and the EP eventually won. A veto isn't a technicality that you can approximate away - it's just as important as being able to propose laws. The national leaders generally didn't like this, because they prefer the EU being more like a (huge, weird) deal negotiation table than something with direct representation. The national leaders are ultimately in charge, so this whole episode is mostly an unforeseen consequence of past treaties that they're willing to tolerate.
nraynaud 10y ago
The country whose chambers are called "Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled" and "Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled" has an issue with the European form of democracy. Not enough inherited power, I guess.

m_mueller 10y ago

While it's sort of democratic, IMO the EU totally went wrong on separating the powers. The Commission is in many ways a Legislative body [1], without it pretty much nothing happens in EU government. So it's an indirect indirect democracy with screwed up checks and balances. Call that what you want, as a Swiss I don't want anything to do with it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Legislative_initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Legislativ...

Brakenshire 10y ago
The head of the Commission is now chosen by the Parliament. Juncker was the EPP candidate.
danmaz74 10y ago
I agree that there's too much indirection, and I wish we'll make it more directly representative.
ProxCoques 10y ago
And how is that any different from a civil service? Let me guess - you've never seen an episode of "Yes, Minister", have you?
- m_mueller 10y ago
  Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Civil service has a very specific meaning to me, am obligated to do it as a male Swiss.

mrec 10y ago

I never thought I'd find myself quoting Tony Benn, but I think his "five questions" are very much on point: "If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions: what power do you have; where did you get it; in whose interests do you exercise it; to whom are you accountable; and, how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

Brakenshire 10y ago
The head of the Commission is voted in or out ever 4-5 years (previously by representatives of governments, now by the Parliament). The representatives can be removed through national democratic processes, and the Parliament is directly elected. Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done. All round, seems to exceed your criteria.
- mrec 10y ago
  Well, ish. AIUI the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council; the Parliament can veto that nomination but can't propose their own. (Rather like their role in legislation.) Your "Moreover, countries can leave at any time, as the UK has just done." sounds a bit odd in the context of this argument. "It's silly for countries to leave the EU on the grounds that it's not democratic, when it's obviously democratic because countries can leave the EU".
  - tormeh 10y ago
    >the President of the Commission is still nominated by the European Council Yes, technically correct. What happened last time however was that the EP said "We want Juncker and we'll veto anyone else". There was a long staring contest and the EP eventually won. A veto isn't a technicality that you can approximate away - it's just as important as being able to propose laws. The national leaders generally didn't like this, because they prefer the EU being more like a (huge, weird) deal negotiation table than something with direct representation. The national leaders are ultimately in charge, so this whole episode is mostly an unforeseen consequence of past treaties that they're willing to tolerate.

nraynaud 10y ago

The country whose chambers are called "Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled" and "Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled" has an issue with the European form of democracy. Not enough inherited power, I guess.