5 ms·

Is the Startup Visa better than the status quo? All the criticism about the Startup Visa seems right, but still, for someone seeking a visa it's still better t

by gasull 17y ago

Is the Startup Visa better than the status quo? All the criticism about the Startup Visa seems right, but still, for someone seeking a visa it's still better to have also this option than not having it. People criticize things for not being perfect (or actually very imperfect) when what is important is if it is a step in the right direction. Does the existence of the Startup Visa make things easier for foreign entrepreneurs compared with what we have now? Yes it does.

HowardRoark 17y ago
No it doesn't. Its just another form of slavery like H1b.
- fnid2 17y ago
  It's not slavery, because slavery is not a choice. H1B holders choose to accept the terms and can choose to go home. Slaves can't.
  - geebee 17y ago
    I agree. While I take a very dim view of the H1B visa, I don't think it's helpful to liken it to slavery. In fact, in some ways, it's not even entirely appropriate to compare it to indentured servitude, since these folks were essentially "owned" - the main difference being that they were released at the end of their term of service (the reality was pretty brutal, from what I've heard). On the other hand, the H1B is particularly offensive in that the quid pro quo is purely visa and green card "sponsorship". The employer is allowed to bestow a government status - legal residency - that the worker could not otherwise obtain. I'm actually kind of amazed that people put up with this in 2010, that a corporation would have that kind of power over an individual. I think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding of what's really going on.
    - helwr 17y ago
      you can always leave your sponsor,you know, and find a better one. i did it 5 times in 5 years. felt like a runaway slave with the first one, escaped south went to new york, and i'm a free man now, my own masta
geebee 17y ago
I think it could be worse than the status quo (which is saying a lot, since the status quo is pretty bad). A lot of people lost confidence in "conditional immigration" categories (ie., we'll let you immigrate provided you become an engineer, an entrepreneur, pick grapes in napa during the harvest season and leave afterwards) after watching how these programs actually work (the H1B, in particular). I had my own experience with this (as most programmers have). The company I worked for, a "startup", wasn't making much progress and had burned through a lot of cash. Investors and managers got frustrated. They moved the office a long distance and banned telecommuting completely. The took away private offices and put us into a cubicle farm. And, of course, they diluted everyone's stock. So, what did I do? I quit. But I'm a US citizen, so I didn't face deportation when I did this. But the H1B workers, all Indians who have to wait longer than normal for green cards because of the longer queue, didn't quit. Of course they didn't, they'd been there for 4+ years, are they going to give up now, when they're so close to a green card? So management pretty much got away with it. Well, they didn't, the company tanked 4 months later, but they sure succeeded in bullying the workers who lack freedom. And the thing is, while I did get to quit, if more and more workers are governed by this arrangement, then this sort of treatment will become the norm, and free citizens will not want to work in that field anymore (which I think is already clearly happening - I personally believe that Americans avoid engineering not because they're too dumb or lazy, but because pay and benefits in engineering are lagging behind other options for highly educated people who are free to pick a different career (1) Personally, I'm certain that this visa will lead to widespread bullying of tech founders by investors who control their dream of becoming free citizens of the united states. That will be much worse than what we have now. I can't get behind any type of conditional immigration. I've seen it in action, and I'm convinced these programs are utterly corrupt and end up making the environment so bad that free people will end up choosing other careers (exacerbating the shortages that the programs claim to remedy). (1) Based on a RAND study A summary is available here: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engi.. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engi.... The full RAND study is at: http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241/ http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241/

by gasull 17y ago

HowardRoark 17y ago

No it doesn't. Its just another form of slavery like H1b.

fnid2 17y ago
It's not slavery, because slavery is not a choice. H1B holders choose to accept the terms and can choose to go home. Slaves can't.
- geebee 17y ago
  I agree. While I take a very dim view of the H1B visa, I don't think it's helpful to liken it to slavery. In fact, in some ways, it's not even entirely appropriate to compare it to indentured servitude, since these folks were essentially "owned" - the main difference being that they were released at the end of their term of service (the reality was pretty brutal, from what I've heard). On the other hand, the H1B is particularly offensive in that the quid pro quo is purely visa and green card "sponsorship". The employer is allowed to bestow a government status - legal residency - that the worker could not otherwise obtain. I'm actually kind of amazed that people put up with this in 2010, that a corporation would have that kind of power over an individual. I think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding of what's really going on.
  - helwr 17y ago
    you can always leave your sponsor,you know, and find a better one. i did it 5 times in 5 years. felt like a runaway slave with the first one, escaped south went to new york, and i'm a free man now, my own masta

geebee 17y ago

I think it could be worse than the status quo (which is saying a lot, since the status quo is pretty bad). A lot of people lost confidence in "conditional immigration" categories (ie., we'll let you immigrate provided you become an engineer, an entrepreneur, pick grapes in napa during the harvest season and leave afterwards) after watching how these programs actually work (the H1B, in particular). I had my own experience with this (as most programmers have). The company I worked for, a "startup", wasn't making much progress and had burned through a lot of cash. Investors and managers got frustrated. They moved the office a long distance and banned telecommuting completely. The took away private offices and put us into a cubicle farm. And, of course, they diluted everyone's stock. So, what did I do? I quit. But I'm a US citizen, so I didn't face deportation when I did this. But the H1B workers, all Indians who have to wait longer than normal for green cards because of the longer queue, didn't quit. Of course they didn't, they'd been there for 4+ years, are they going to give up now, when they're so close to a green card? So management pretty much got away with it. Well, they didn't, the company tanked 4 months later, but they sure succeeded in bullying the workers who lack freedom. And the thing is, while I did get to quit, if more and more workers are governed by this arrangement, then this sort of treatment will become the norm, and free citizens will not want to work in that field anymore (which I think is already clearly happening - I personally believe that Americans avoid engineering not because they're too dumb or lazy, but because pay and benefits in engineering are lagging behind other options for highly educated people who are free to pick a different career (1) Personally, I'm certain that this visa will lead to widespread bullying of tech founders by investors who control their dream of becoming free citizens of the united states. That will be much worse than what we have now. I can't get behind any type of conditional immigration. I've seen it in action, and I'm convinced these programs are utterly corrupt and end up making the environment so bad that free people will end up choosing other careers (exacerbating the shortages that the programs claim to remedy). (1) Based on a RAND study A summary is available here: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engi.. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engi.... The full RAND study is at: http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241/ http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241/